Need DM advice or help

[gizmo33]

Wasn't it a stated design goal of these new editions to hold up at high levels without resorting to the tactics you've suggested?

Oh, and I would say also that where the new edition fails to achieve this design goal - it's because it's trying to maintain some sort of homage to earlier editions. One wonders whether spells like teleport, shape change, et. al. would be like they are (levels, effects) if not for the precedent of earlier editions - which did a much worse job with that "stated design goal" that you mention IMO.

 

[weinerdog]

what i was saying is that, imo, certain controls are necessary in high level campaigns. what would ravenloft be if you could just "get out" whenever you want? or the worlds largest dungeon? or a myriad of other adventures. of course as a dm its up to you to be prepared for the level of pc's you are GMing. My previous post was in the interest of things not getting out of hand and out of control in regards to the story line. im not saying to nerf all the good powers of high level pc's, but there has to be a point where something just isnt possible for the pc's to accomplish at a whim.

 

[gizmo33]

The problem starts when the DM uses such devices and creatures as crutches, and just keeps using them because they are "effective."

Agreed. So I think we could agree that one (of many) possible solutions to the problem would be to examine the real role that other high level creatures (eg. gold dragons, demon princes, etc.) would be playing in the campaign, and what their potential reactions would be to the character's actions.

The second IMO would be to take a good look at the high level rules in 3E. As you say, you don't want to have the same "anti-X" spell solution to every X spell out there. It becomes uninteresting and repetitive - like the Undermountain example you give.

At the same time, I believe that "anti-X" spells are grossly under-represented in the 3E rules, and I believe this is the heritage of earlier editions. In the old days, spell power was more easily limited in a dungeon-crawl type setting where you could just have random and wacky things happen, and where high level monsters lived next door to each other, and where camping and rememorizing spells was a dangerous thing.

Now in campaigns with a little more subtlety, I think it makes sense to re-examine the spell list. In the situation of teleporting assassins, I just think it makes sense that "anti-teleport" zones would be fairly common in higher level areas/strongholds. Of course this could lead to a sort of "arms race" where methods are developed to counter these "anti-teleport" zones, and so on. But I think it's realistic that even high level fighters would have spent some time trying to protect themselves against these effects.

 

[weinerdog]

What's the point of playing at high level if you nerf the cool parts of being high level? No, none of the things you mention IME are ABSOLUTELY necessary. My next DM session will have 6 18th level PCs. I'm not disallowing or nerfing anything. And the adventure will take place in a city. I'm not worried about it not being challenging. They can teleport, disjunction, and wish to their heart's content. So can the enemy....
__________________
you dont want to dm my group.

 

[weinerdog]

give us a couple of hours and your city will look like sodom and gamorah

 

[Templeton580]

What would ravenloft be if you could just "get out" whenever you want?

Umm...much less annoying?

 

[weinerdog]

lol. how do you qoute people like that?

 

[Templeton580]

(Click the "quote" button at the bottom right of the post you wanna quote. Then delete everything you don't want to quote. Then post it.)

 

[jmucchiello]

what i was saying is that, imo, certain controls are necessary in high level campaigns. what would ravenloft be if you could just "get out" whenever you want? or the worlds largest dungeon? or a myriad of other adventures.

IMO, Ravenloft is not really D&D. It's horror fantasy. Horror games put lots of lockdowns on characters.

As for your other examples, there is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to teleport in and out of those dungeons except that the authors didn't want to deal with it. I consider that bad design.

My previous post was in the interest of things not getting out of hand and out of control in regards to the story line. im not saying to nerf all the good powers of high level pc's, but there has to be a point where something just isnt possible for the pc's to accomplish at a whim.

Why? Why does there have to be a point....? Again, either embrace high level play as written or don't play high level, but don't say it needs nerfing because otherwise it is impossible. It's not impossible.

I'll run a murder mystery with 20th level characters. So you say commune tells you that Arch-Chancellor Gryphon is the murderer? Well, that's nice, now prove it. I'm sure the Arch-Chancellor can pony up a few clerics of other religions who will testify that commune with their deity exonerates the AC. Deities also can lie.

If you propose that there are rocks with dimensional locks on them, I hope you also provide them for sell to the PCs, too. When my wizard could, she created a object with dimesional anchor. When Dlock became available, the object was updated. (This object is kept in her safehouse.) My character preventing others from scry/buff/teleport doesn't stop her from doing the SBT if she can. It's just how high level D&D is.

 

[Templeton580]

Now in campaigns with a little more subtlety, I think it makes sense to re-examine the spell list. In the situation of teleporting assassins, I just think it makes sense that "anti-teleport" zones would be fairly common in higher level areas/strongholds. Of course this could lead to a sort of "arms race" where methods are developed to counter these "anti-teleport" zones, and so on. But I think it's realistic that even high level fighters would have spent some time trying to protect themselves against these effects.

I completely agree with you Gizmo, but could it be that the current spell list is not solely a hand-me-down from previous incarnations, but also an attempt to not get into that "arms race" in the first place?

I dunno, I'm just guessin'.