Need DM help: Skill Challenges, encounters and story transitioning

[Jestersama]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here so forgive me if I put this in the wrong place, but I'm looking for assistance in specifics concerning that which is mentioned in the title.

A bit of backstory: I'm making my own campaign at the moment, I'm literally railroading my players (they're on a train, I thought it'd be funny). I'm going to set it up as a basic train heist that leads into a supernatural horror story in the vein of H.P. Lovecraft.

Skillchallenges: I'm looking at doing three. The first I want is an introductory one (since some of my players have never done an SC). I was thinking of doing it as an escape from a locked and pitch black baggage car after which they need to blend in wi th h the rest of the passengers. The second is a train top chase of a hooded figure leading to the engine car (I can't think of how to keep them from just doing athletics/Acrobatics checks and have it story oriebted, maybe have the hood do something each round then have the player do an ath/acro check at the end of their turn?) The final is a mad attempt at stopping the now runaway train before it crashes into things or derails or something.

Issue I'm having as mentioned after Challenge Idea ##2 is that I don't know how to allow And force them to be creative while keeping from being repetitive in the scenarios each player has to face within the challenge.

Encounters: I have 6 encounters (plus a dragon fight before the final skill challenge) the go between. They range from easy-hard. A couple minion swarms and a mini-boss. Do you think I should expand to a few more encounters?

Story: I don't quite know how to transition from a basic burglary (they're not the burglars btw) into a supernatural horror without letting them realize fully what's going on. The hooded figure previously mentioned is going to be a magic user. Maybe have the mini-boss give 'birth' to a gibbering horror post fight which then escapes? I dunno.

I'm going to have 6-7 players in case that info is needed.

Sorry for the length of this post and any spelling errors. If you need any additional info please ask.

Thank you in advance for any assistance yout can provide.

 

[Balesir]

First thoughts on your SCs - I don't see anything really clear about the stakes of them. If the PCs fail the first challenge, are you really going to have them stuck in the baggage car until the train crashes? Assuming that's a "no", what will they gain or lose by success or failure at the challenge? As a general tip, you can even have "staged stakes" where each failed roll causes some sort of penalty - or you can just have "winner takes all" where any success at the challenge makes all the gains.

On the train-top chase - nice idea! To get some variety of skills, you could add in some "terrain" (a tunnel, some overhanging trees, a "cargo" waggon or two) and have some sort of "cat and mouse" going on with the hooded creature (involving perception, bluff, insight and maybe intimidation to threaten with a ranged weapon and force taking cover/dodging). Also don't forget the possibility for character powers to gain successes - teleports and climbing/jumping powers could be useful, as could something like "Navigate Crowds" power for getting through a crowded carriage fast.

 

[Jestersama]

That's a good point on the first SC, I'm not sure how I could do that. I just want to introduce them to the SC mechanic before the train top chase. Perhaps I could use the crowded car or gathering some information first as one (although there still isn't much of a loss in that)

 

[Balesir]

That's a good point on the first SC, I'm not sure how I could do that. I just want to introduce them to the SC mechanic before the train top chase. Perhaps I could use the crowded car or gathering some information first as one (although there still isn't much of a loss in that)

Well, I think escaping from a locked, blacked-out carriage could work - you just need to think through the win/lose states. What is the worst position that the PCs could be in (and still be having fun) at the start of the next challenge? There's your base "lose" condition. And what is the best that they might achieve (without short-circuiting the adventure)? There's your base "win" condition. Now decide whether you want a simple win/lose switch or a graduated "succeed after no fails/succeed after 1 fail/succeed after 2 fails/fail the challenge" range of outcomes.

Finally - and importantly (@pemerton can probably say more on this) - be ready to adjust the outcome based on the fictional state arising from what the players have their characters actually do. One of the best bits of advice I have seen for SCs is: don't let the players say something like "I roll athletics to try to catch the guy". Have them explain what their character is actually doing, and then decide or negotiate the skill they roll based on that action, and have the gains/losses moulded by those actions. For example, assuming that the idea of the train roof chase is that the PCs catch the hooded guy, maybe successes at slowing them will mean they need to use resources like an Encounter power to kill the driver (if that's what they are trying to do), while shooting at them will mean they start the ensuing fight down on hit points. Maybe the hooded guy could even be a Solo if the SC fails or an Elite if it succeeds. Maybe success leaves the driver barely alive and able to give instructions on controlling the train. On the "escape from a carriage", that might affect the difficulty of the rooftop chase challenge (because hooded guy has more or less head start) - and/or maybe using Encounter or Daily powers can break the door of the carriage (giving auto successes) but those powers will not then be available for the next encounter (because there is no time for a rest!). Maybe failing the escape challenge leaves the PCs hanging onto the outside of the carriage rather than escaping into another carriage or onto a boarding stage. Maybe success at escaping interrupts the bad guys in their preparations for future challenges/encounters (giving the PCs surprise, say, or meaning the opponents don't have some useful piece of kit).

Work through this sort of "best case/worst case" analysis and you should find you have a better idea of what the challenges are really about - i.e. what their stakes are.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The simplest advice I can give you is don't introduce the PCs to the skill challenge rules. They are best used as a DM side tool which enables you to pace things and concentrate on what's going on with the world. Use the tools but don't tell the PCs you are using them. I'm currently writing a retroclone - and the guidance I've given there for my version of Skill Challenges isn't the only way to run them (by the rules 4e Skill Challenges are a lot more structured - but my version has grown out of the 4e ones and even been ported to other games and back)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'd actually like keeping Skill Challenges 'above board.' If you don't spell out some aspects of the skill challenge, you'll end up with players declaring actions that use a really poor choice of skill (one they're bad at, doesn't apply, or even auto-fails) and they'll fail the challenge in short order - or even somehow wander away in the middle of it. Also, in a free-form mode like that, you'll inevitably have some players who are more assertive about /doing/ things then others, and others that might get bored or otherwise lose the thread of what's going on.

A structure - like initiative and turns/action in combat - keeps everyone involved and, hopefully engaged.

That said, the basic successes-before-3-failures of Skill Challenges is definitely just a starting point. You can turn more dramatic/complex skill challenges into veritable mini-games of their own.

For instance, for the train-top chase you /could/ just call for a series of athletics or acrobatics rolls to climb or balance & run along after the hooded figure and narrate it as best you can.

Or, you could have something to represent the train cars - like boxes or a cardboard cutouts on the table - or, as one DM I know did, an actual model train. With each easy success in acrobatics, athletics or streetwise (for moving through the crowded cars instead of on top of them) a player moves his mini to the next car. And, each turn, the hooded figure also moves to the next car. To /catch/ him the players have to make additional checks to move another car ahead, or slow the figure down. Those are the checks that count as success or failures in the SC. And they can be more varied. Hard Accrobatics, for instance, could get a success, letting the PC run along the top of the cars and move forward an extra car - but failure causes him to fall, and perhaps forces another player to stay behind to help him. Expending a power that slows/imobilizes/etd could allow a check (hard for an at-will, moderate for an encounter, or even easy if a Daily is sacrificed) against an appropriate skill (so, Arcana for a spell, Religion for a Prayer, Athletics or Acrobatics for an exploit, etc) to keep the hooded figure from moving to the next car for a turn. A loud Intimidate or Bluff check could create a problem for the hooded figure as someone in the car he's on reacts (pulling an emergency break, climbing up to stop the 'theif' or whatever). You could come up with a list of possible uses or let players make a case for how a skill would help.

You could also have a 'complications' mechanic, like a little table of things that could happen - tree-limbs rushing past and threatening to knock off characters using Athletics to climb along the sides of the cars, entering a tunnel that plunges the train into darkness and threaten anyone balancing atop the cars, a bend in the track that brings the hooded figure though far ahead, into range of some attack powers, others on the train doing things that might help or hinder either side, etc...


Be sure to decide what success and failure mean. A complete success (no failures) could mean they catch up and enter combat while still atop train cars. A partial could have the fight happen in the engine, with a possibility the engineer could be killed or the engine damaged. A failure means catching up to him in the engine and finding the dead engineer... If that fits what you had in mind.

If they're not supposed to defeat the hooded figure yet, it could reveal something about itself and trigger an escape power of some sort when bloodied (like sprouting tentacles before dissolving into a thick oily mist and mixing with the engine's coal smoke and flying back to one of the trailing cars or something.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here so forgive me if I put this in the wrong place, but I'm looking for assistance in specifics concerning that which is mentioned in the title.

A bit of backstory: I'm making my own campaign at the moment, I'm literally railroading my players (they're on a train, I thought it'd be funny). I'm going to set it up as a basic train heist that leads into a supernatural horror story in the vein of H.P. Lovecraft.

Skill challenges: I'm looking at doing three. The first I want is an introductory one (since some of my players have never done an SC). I was thinking of doing it as an escape from a locked and pitch black baggage car after which they need to blend in wi th h the rest of the passengers.

IMO the best skill challenges are ones you make up on the spot. The PCs might not have to blend in with the passengers. They might overpower or outsmart their opponents instead. Why are they hiding? What is after them? Why don't they just kick its butt?

The second is a train top chase of a hooded figure leading to the engine car (I can't think of how to keep them from just doing athletics/Acrobatics checks and have it story oriebted, maybe have the hood do something each round then have the player do an ath/acro check at the end of their turn?) The final is a mad attempt at stopping the now runaway train before it crashes into things or derails or something.

It sounds like you could combine the last two. Also, if one of the PCs is a controller, or maybe a defender, they might slow or immobilize the bad guy and outright prevent them from escaping. You could make it a side story though. While the bad guy is doing something, one of his chief henchmen is heading to the engine car. If the PCs ignore the henchman, the boss gets some kind of power-up, whereas stopping the henchman gives the boss time to get a different power-up. Morton's Fork.

Story: I don't quite know how to transition from a basic burglary (they're not the burglars btw) into a supernatural horror without letting them realize fully what's going on. The hooded figure previously mentioned is going to be a magic user. Maybe have the mini-boss give 'birth' to a gibbering horror post fight which then escapes? I dunno.

I think an explosive birth is the coolest there. Killing the mini-boss literally makes things worse.

 

[Jestersama]

IMO the best skill challenges are ones you make up on the spot. The PCs might not have to blend in with the passengers. They might overpower or outsmart their opponents instead. Why are they hiding? What is after them? Why don't they just kick its butt?



It sounds like you could combine the last two. Also, if one of the PCs is a controller, or maybe a defender, they might slow or immobilize the bad guy and outright prevent them from escaping. You could make it a side story though. While the bad guy is doing something, one of his chief henchmen is heading to the engine car. If the PCs ignore the henchman, the boss gets some kind of power-up, whereas stopping the henchman gives the boss time to get a different power-up. Morton's Fork.



I think an explosive birth is the coolest there. Killing the mini-boss literally makes things worse.

Edit: I think I'll combine the final two SC and split them with a battle with either the hooded figure or one of his henchmen.

So what you're saying is rather than having the "birth" at the death of the mini-boss, have an RP transformation (perhaps a build-up over the course of the battle? leading into a literal explosion that knocks the players prone and thus reveals the now transformed opponent in all his/her grisly horror???)

Also, to your first point, that's a good idea, maybe have a conductor (or employee) confront them and try to get them to cooperate and hide (due to dangerous men on board) thus leading into the battles and so forth.

 

[Jestersama]

I'd actually like keeping Skill Challenges 'above board.' If you don't spell out some aspects of the skill challenge, you'll end up with players declaring actions that use a really poor choice of skill (one they're bad at, doesn't apply, or even auto-fails) and they'll fail the challenge in short order - or even somehow wander away in the middle of it. Also, in a free-form mode like that, you'll inevitably have some players who are more assertive about /doing/ things then others, and others that might get bored or otherwise lose the thread of what's going on.

A structure - like initiative and turns/action in combat - keeps everyone involved and, hopefully engaged.

That said, the basic successes-before-3-failures of Skill Challenges is definitely just a starting point. You can turn more dramatic/complex skill challenges into veritable mini-games of their own.

For instance, for the train-top chase you /could/ just call for a series of athletics or acrobatics rolls to climb or balance & run along after the hooded figure and narrate it as best you can.

Or, you could have something to represent the train cars - like boxes or a cardboard cutouts on the table - or, as one DM I know did, an actual model train. With each easy success in acrobatics, athletics or streetwise (for moving through the crowded cars instead of on top of them) a player moves his mini to the next car. And, each turn, the hooded figure also moves to the next car. To /catch/ him the players have to make additional checks to move another car ahead, or slow the figure down. Those are the checks that count as success or failures in the SC. And they can be more varied. Hard Accrobatics, for instance, could get a success, letting the PC run along the top of the cars and move forward an extra car - but failure causes him to fall, and perhaps forces another player to stay behind to help him. Expending a power that slows/imobilizes/etd could allow a check (hard for an at-will, moderate for an encounter, or even easy if a Daily is sacrificed) against an appropriate skill (so, Arcana for a spell, Religion for a Prayer, Athletics or Acrobatics for an exploit, etc) to keep the hooded figure from moving to the next car for a turn. A loud Intimidate or Bluff check could create a problem for the hooded figure as someone in the car he's on reacts (pulling an emergency break, climbing up to stop the 'theif' or whatever). You could come up with a list of possible uses or let players make a case for how a skill would help.

You could also have a 'complications' mechanic, like a little table of things that could happen - tree-limbs rushing past and threatening to knock off characters using Athletics to climb along the sides of the cars, entering a tunnel that plunges the train into darkness and threaten anyone balancing atop the cars, a bend in the track that brings the hooded figure though far ahead, into range of some attack powers, others on the train doing things that might help or hinder either side, etc...


Be sure to decide what success and failure mean. A complete success (no failures) could mean they catch up and enter combat while still atop train cars. A partial could have the fight happen in the engine, with a possibility the engineer could be killed or the engine damaged. A failure means catching up to him in the engine and finding the dead engineer... If that fits what you had in mind.

If they're not supposed to defeat the hooded figure yet, it could reveal something about itself and trigger an escape power of some sort when bloodied (like sprouting tentacles before dissolving into a thick oily mist and mixing with the engine's coal smoke and flying back to one of the trailing cars or something.

I'm definitely going to explain to them that it's in their best interest to use skills that they have high mods in AS WELL as that they role-play what they're doing (which I could use depending on the RP action whether to make the check an easy, med or hard check).

I also love the idea of the mutliple endings depending on how the previous SC went (pass, partial fail) that third one could definitely open doors (or close some easier doors mwahaha).

I have so much thinking and planning to do. Thanks everyone for all your advice! I'll gladly accept more. Information is power and I'm much better at modification than creation lol.