Need hellp with character creation for an intractible DM

[Coredump]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach. You are talking about two different DM's, and this one doesn't sound great, but most of his 'demands' don't seem that bad.

The thing is, he wasn't like that in that system. Only in this system, for some bizarre reason.

Because it is a different world. I play in a Kalamar game, and a a Forgotten realms game, and a star wars game. THey happen to be different types of worlds, with different restrictions etc. If he was running Midnight, and you complained about not being a high level mage, you would be wrong. He is running a world with few clerics, that is part of the campaign, I don't see the problem.

Yes, he rolled my stats. From the stats of the other 2 new players (he sent them all on the same e-mail), I had the lowest stats, with the lowest total stat bonus and the lowest number of odds (which means nothing to them).

Which means he *may* have cheated, or that one person had to be the lowest, and you were it. It is still PB 23, which is quite playable, even if you are not a fighter.

He started off with saying "low divine, so no clerics",

Perfectly reasonable.

and proceded to outlaw Wizards and Sorcerors

From what you said, there are already one wizard and one sorcerer. And he doesn't want half the party going that way. While not my style, it doesn't seem too uncalled for.

and more or less outlawed Soulknives for me.

No, he said he would count the blade as an item. That I don't agree with, but how much is it worth? Is it *that* big of a deal? You get 88,000 GP, if the blade is 'counted' as 5-10K...who really cares?

He knows I hate having to roll up monsters and keep track of half-a-dozen summoned stuff at a time, so he can safely rule out Druids for me.

No, you rule out druids.

He also knows I hate playing Bards and Rogues. So, I guess he is more or less picking the classes for me.

No, you are saying it can not be bard/rogue. From what you have said (ie, one side of the discussion) the only thing he has is no cleric/wizard/sorcerer, for the mentioned reasons. YOU have ruled out soulknife, bard, rogue, druid. That still leaves fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian, psion, psychic warrior, wilder, and even monk. So he ruled out 3 of 15.

I wanted to play the heroic type, probably Half-Celestial of some description, with a wife and a kid.

So be 'heroic' without being half-celestial. Heroic is determined by the actions, not the race or backstory.

The wife was to be like that lady in Tiberian Sun, so that we get a child with wings and crystals gowing out of her head (I actually started the character concept with the kid rather than with my character).

Heck, your lucky. In my campaign I would just have said no. Sorry, no kids with wings and crystals in my world.

He ruled that quarter-Celestials are Aasimars and so have no wings.

Don't know if there are rules regarding this, but his interpretation seems reasonable.

I also HAVE to take the Leadership feat in order to have this wife "effectively" (ie., have her give me advice on things she knows, etc., which would be determined by him, since he is playing her as an NPC).

So why do you care about your wife being 'effective', I thought it was just a backstory? But if you want an 'effective full celestial' then maybe a feat isn't such a bad idea. If you just want a wife for the backstory, then you shouldn't need a feat.


There are a ton of options available to you. Just stay away from the templates and half-whatevers and build an interesting character. While it seems that this DM is a bit heavy handed, I can see how he may have gotten the impression that you like to powergame. (correct or incorrect impression is a different topic) He is trying to protect his campaign.

Are the other players aasimars and half-celestials etc.? Do they have wives, brothers, uncles that they hope to get 'effective help' from as a freebie? Can the other two rolling up characters freely choose cleric/wizard/sorcerer? If not, just chill and play the game. He may not qualify for DM of the Year, but it just doesn't sound all that bad. (remember folks, he has described two different DM's throughout this)
He ruled out 3 classes, and pushed back a bit on you wanting to be half-celestial, and have crystals growing out, and wings, and weird stuff like that. (I don't get the tiberian sun reference, sorry). I think that is pretty much all very within reason.

Hope it works out for you.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Oh yeah the soulknife thing. That one is really off base. He wants to charge you gp for it, when you're already paying class levels. What else can a soulknife do really, then produce it's own magic weapon for "free"? Most of the other abilities are simply making your weapon a little more versatile, which other PC's do by picking up a bow.

 

[Shadeus]

15, 14, 12, 12, 9, 8

Half-orc barbarian, forget that alchemy crap! You are level 11? So do something like this:

Str 19 (including stat increases)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 6
Wis 12
Cha 7

So you only get two skills per level, big deal. Make sure one of them in Intimidate for "social" situations. Are you at the ball? Intimidate the guy dancing with the good-looking woman so you get the next dance. Sure you are ugly and smell. But you can fight really good! Be sure to try to fit in a physical contest into every possible situation.

Then get a big sword or axe and some mithral platemail. Then you are set to bring a beatdown on someone. If you want to intimidate better, swap out Wis and Cha. Otherwise play that 7 Cha to the hilt. Be sure to urinate on as many NPCs as possible.

As for your DM woes, I suspect the DM basically doesn't want players; he wants puppets. He's not playing a game, he's reading a story that he's written and you are acting out. It's called railroading and is guarenteed to ruin your fun. But I can understand the need to "live with it" for a while. Maybe you can fit into his mold of the ideal character and find a way to still enjoy yourself.

 

[blargney the second]

Play an Elan Barbarian. Get the Speed of Thought feat. Run away very fast.

 

[Coredump]

As for your DM woes, I suspect the DM basically doesn't want players; he wants puppets. .

Suspect away, but all we *know* is that he doesn't want clerics, doesn't want 'too many' wizard/sorcerers, has an issue with half-celestials (or maybe all such templates), and has a weird perception of soulknife.

It just doesn't seem all that restrictive.

 

[boredgremlin]

This DM sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Lets look point by point.
1) no clerics. So? Lets not forget the psionics handbook is optional and many campaigns dont use the things from it. No one is screaming those DM's suck.
2) Doesnt want too many wizards?. Too many wizards suck, the DM has to run more magical enemies. Because even a bunch of orcs will dice wizards to jerky if they come all at once without warriors in the between them. For all we know the DM said from the start that there were only so many mages and this poster just waited to long and now wants to change the campaign rules.
3) Doesnt want stupid over powered templates? Good for him. More DM's need to start standing up and saying "not in my campaign. I dont care if WoTC wanted to put a few more pages in the last book and didnt care how stupid it was". I never allow templates like that. Ever. I only had one player camplain so far and once we got going and he saw you can play the standard races just fine without trying to munchkin the game he quit whining about it. Sometimes a DM has to stand up and show players this is a RP game not a video game.
4) He changed the soul knife a bit? Big deal. Anyone else remember that the "free magic weapon" thats supposed to be a class skill was considered too powerfull before and so the soul knife was a prestige class at first? In my opinion it still should be. A free magical item that you can allways hide with no chance of it being discovered, or of being disarmed in combat is pretty powerfull.
5) He doesnt want a family man in the game? A free powerful NPC advisor would be like having access to a sage you dont have to pay for. That should be leadership, at least. A normal wife sure, no feat. An angelic sage? Thats a feat. Sorry. Plus having a family in the game is a big pain to realistically portray. Either your gonna have a lot of downtime the other players have to account for or your wife is gonna leave your absentee butt. And your little crystal headed kid is gonna be calling someone else daddy. Just look at the devorce rate of real life military and police families. Between time apart and stress, that marriage is doomed. While this is a funny way for him to screw over your character if he doesnt like you and will probably get all the players laughing thier butts off. Its not necesarily everyones idea of a good game.
6) He rolled your stats? This is bull. Butt if he rolled everyones else's too its not a game breaker.
In closing it sounds like he gave you some very fair restrictions based on his vision for a low divine, game without all kinds of strange extra dimensional creatures running around. And you took it and threw a temper tantrum because you couldnt do exactly what you wanted and refused to try half the classes in the game. Sounds like the problem is with this player not the DM. Lest we forget the DM puts a lot of time and work into the game that players dont. He has every right to enjoy the game just as much as the players do. Unless of course you started paying this DM for his time? I highly doudt that though. In short, try something new. If you suck at rogues, practice and get better. And try seeing that other peoples vision of a campaign world can be just as valid as yours. The person who spent all that time building it included.

 

[Caeleddin]

Mistwell - Maybe you should read the entire thread. I did NOT want my wife to be a half-Celestial OR a Celestial. HE changed her to a Celestial. I chose Half-Celestial myself because that is the only way I can think of to fit my character history into his campaign setting (I don't know anything about the Psionic Handbook, really, as I only have the core 3 books). The city we are in is currently under a sort of a siege. The only safe way in would be to planar travel and "accidentally" dropped in, unless you are saying that the three of us can fight off a host of dragons and evil guys all the way to this city, which is supposed to be at least 15 days travel away from the nearest city towards the middle of nowhere. There is absolutely NO REASON for anyone not of the city to travel to the city.

I find you assumption that I am a powergamer quite offensive. In his WoD campaign, in a world of magic and vampires and whatnot, my character was the weakest because I played him that way. He is a military man, good with guns, that is the equivalent of a Mage with 1 Arete point and 1 dot in Life. I purposely did NOT put any points into the magic arena because that wasn't his philosophy (I was modelling him after Jack o'Neil from Stargate SG-1). Hell, he didn't even have occult, so he was trying to stop vampires and bad werewolves and dragon spirits with ordinary bullets. He was fun to play, since I get to be as sarcastic as I want.

In the other campaign, my Sorceror is up the creek without a paddle because of DM "suggestions" and rule changes. I lived with it.

I also did NOT want special stuff from my background. Nowhere have I mentioned that. What I wanted was to have a family and a life away from adventuring, which is what he preferred (all the other characters have some sort of profession or craft skill, mine is Craft Alchemy, which is why I preferred high Int). He preferred an intricate history that I can roleplay to and I gave him that.

I don't know if it is just your normal personality and you are trying to troll me, but if you can't refraiin from tossing powergaming accusations around, please leave. I am trying to find a solution, not engage in a shouting match.


Coredump - A level 12 Soulknife has the equivalent of a +6/+7 weapon (+3 weapon, +2 enhancements on top of that, psychic strike, shapeable, the equivalent of Whilrwind feat). That is, I believe, 72/98k in equipment value, not 5-10k? That is quite a big deal when you get 88k, isn't it?

There is 1 Sorceror in the party. The Wizard belonged to a departed player and he is using the guy as an NPC now. I should also mention that the Rogue/Bard in the party is a half-Fiend with +3 level adjustment. The current party consists of:

Half-Fiend Bard/Rogue
Human Ranger Archer
Human Sorceror
*one other unknown PC*
Me

Thus, he does not mind half-anything in the party. There is already one.

It is easier to play a low PB character as a spellcaster than as a fighter. Fighters need good Str and Con, and maybe a decent Dex. Spellcasters only need Wis/Int/Cha.

As I said, one of the players in the party is already a Sorceror and I never said I wanted freebies for anything. Your interpretation of what I have said seems a bit off centre. Then again, you seem to identify with him and his style of doing things. You do not seem to appreciate that players like to roll up their own characters, that making up a character is half a player's fun. you do not seem to appreciate that players like control over their characters.

I can assure you, as you seem to lack firsthand knowledge of this, that it is not fun for players when the DM make them do things they do not like. I recall a Middle Earth campaign where the DM created our characters for us and he insisted that he gets to have fun with them. He made the characters pee their pants, mess themselves, and all sorts of "hilarious" things when it suited him. It was not fun. I left after 2 sessions. If you think that is perfectly reasonable and your players allow you to do it, more the power to you. I, however, don't like it.


Shadeus - That would work, except that he is assigning the equipment. We don't get to choose. Oh, he says he'll work with us over the equipment, but......!

I am not to worried about equipment, though, which is why I didn't mention it. I never am. In the party with my screwed up Sorceror the current DM's character (who is CN) always grab all the magical stuff. He has all the wands and scrolls and staffs in the party. My Sorceror (who is CG) don't have a single wand or scroll or staff because it is not in his philosophy to fight for items. I have a magical flaming longsword +1 that I don't use due to in-character preferrences because no one else wanted it, and they were feeling guilty because I never get anything, and a few minor items like a Cloak of Resist +1, etc.


KaeYoss - I don't know if he is here. He says he surfs the Errata and D&D forums quite often. Which ones, I have no idea.

That is what I am planning to do in the orientation session. Either that or insist that he let me play the Half-Orc Commoner that will stupidly charge into battle against anything (I even made a sketch character sheet for this guy already). After a few deaths (at -1 level per death) he should get the idea that I am giving him the longest PC to DM "get bent" in D&D history.


Blargney - LOL! Nice idea, but wouldn't a 12th level Monk be better in that situation?

 

[Caeleddin]

For all those people that seem to like to insist that I am powergaming, THIS is powergaming (from the 3 core books only):

Half-Celestial/Wood-Elf
Ranger/Sorceror/Dragon Disciple (Gold) 9/1/10
Str +14
Con +4
Dex +4
Int +2
Wis +4
Cha +6
Resistances (10/): Cold, Acid, Lightning
Immunity: Fire, Paralyse, Sleep, "Person" spells
+5 Natural Armour
Breath Weapon
Spell-Like Abilities
Spell Resistance 30

Feats (selected): Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
Other Feats: Rapid Shot, Multishot, Track, Endurance
Other Abilities: Spells, Animal Companion, Evasion, Favoured Enemy x2, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker

Or a Monk instead of Ranger variation of the above and focus on melee combat with Two-Weapon Fighting.

I had fun watching DMs have seizures when I trotted this chappie out for a laugh.

 

[Coredump]

Look, you asked for opinions, and we are giving them to you. If you only wanted people to say "I agree with you no matter what' you should have stated that in the initial post.

Mistwell - Maybe you should read the entire thread. I did NOT want my wife to be a half-Celestial OR a Celestial. HE changed her to a Celestial.

No, you just wanted her to be like 'the chick from tiberian sun' and for your kid to have wings and crystals. (whatever that means)

I chose Half-Celestial myself because that is the only way I can think of to fit my character history into his campaign setting (I don't know anything about the Psionic Handbook, really, as I only have the core 3 books). The city we are in is currently under a sort of a siege. The only safe way in would be to planar travel and "accidentally" dropped in,

Huh? You can't think of any way to get to this city besides being a half-celestial? Hell, just pissing off a wizard might do it. I don't know your backstory, but I bet I could think of at least 5 ways for you to get to this city besides being a half-celestial.

Hell, he didn't even have occult, so he was trying to stop vampires and bad werewolves and dragon spirits with ordinary bullets.

Um... I have played WoD, and can kick some serious ass with 'only guns'. We haven't played with you, so I am not saying you are a powergamer, but your complaints are similar to what a powergamer often says. And your DM, who does know you better, is concerned by it. So we have to assume that it might be true. The fact that he has made only a few restrictions, and yet you are here screaming about, doesn't help your case much.

In the other campaign, my Sorceror is up the creek without a paddle because of DM "suggestions" and rule changes. I lived with it.

Sorry you consider fighter2/sorc4 as 'up the creek' Don't know what spells you took, but it could be pretty fun to play I would think.

I also did NOT want special stuff from my background. Nowhere have I mentioned that.

You complained that you needed the leadership feat for her to help 'effectively'. If you now say you don't care about her being knowledgable and helping you. Than what are you complaining about??? Just say "I just want a wife, not an 'effective' advisor", and you don't need the feat. All he has said (according to you) is that you don't get added benefits unless you take the feat, you say you don't want the benefits...so what is the problem again??
Also, from your background, you do want a flying kid with crystals, and a 'tiberian sun chick' for a wife. Not sure if that counts as 'special stuff' since I really don't know what it means.W

I don't know if it is just your normal personality and you are trying to troll me, but if you can't refraiin from tossing powergaming accusations around, please leave. I am trying to find a solution, not engage in a shouting match.

He did not call you a powergamer, just said that there are two sides to a story, and that some of your actions seem to support your *DM's* accusation of powergaming. And it is becoming unclear if you are looking for solutions, or just people to agree with you so you can use it against your DM. It seems totally unfathomable to you that maybe, just maybe, your DM is being somewhat reasonable.

Coredump - A level 12 Soulknife has the equivalent of a +6/+7 weapon (+3 weapon, +2 enhancements on top of that, psychic strike, shapeable, the equivalent of Whilrwind feat). That is, I believe, 72/98k in equipment value, not 5-10k? That is quite a big deal when you get 88k, isn't it?

So, that is what your DM said? Oh wait, you don't know? You didn't ask him? Yet you are here saying how horrible the decision is. Maybe he just treats it like a +3, or maybe a straight 5K, or maybe as 100K and you owe him money. I don't know, you don't know, yet you are complaining about it.

There is 1 Sorceror in the party. The Wizard belonged to a departed player and he is using the guy as an NPC now.

So, out of 6 characters, two are wiz/sorc..... granted, I would let the PC play the wizard and send the NPC away, but he may (or may not) have a reason for why he isn't doing that. And it is only closing out 3 of the 15 choices.

I should also mention that the Rogue/Bard in the party is a half-Fiend with +3 level adjustment. The current party consists of:

And from what you have said, he didn't have a problem with you being a half celestial, he had a problem with you kid *also* being a half celestial,and having wings, and crytals. (What the hell is up with the crystals anyway? And the tiberan sun chick thing?)
Let your wife be a normal wife, let the kid be a normal kid. And there is no problem with you being a half-celestial. (except having a half-celestial and half-fiend in the same party.....)

It is easier to play a low PB character as a spellcaster than as a fighter. Fighters need good Str and Con, and maybe a decent Dex. Spellcasters only need Wis/Int/Cha.

Sorry, but I disagree. You have been given plenty of examples already for decent builds with your scores. You may have a hard time as a monk, but compared to the 'standard array' you are doing okay.

You do not seem to appreciate that players like to roll up their own characters, that making up a character is half a player's fun. you do not seem to appreciate that players like control over their characters.

Look, quit the condescending stuff please. He has made very few restrictions, and instead of talking to him, or trying to work with them, you came running here. You were given alternatives, but want everyone to agree that he is a 'bad dm' for putting the *few* restrictions he has. I am sorry you didn't get to roll up your own character, I think that was cheesy on his part. But he did it to everyone, and it really shouldn't be *that* big of a deal. A bunch of DM's use an array, and somehow their campaigns survive also.

Shadeus - That would work, except that he is assigning the equipment. We don't get to choose. Oh, he says he'll work with us over the equipment, but......!

But.....once again you have not talked to him or tried to work with him. All you know is that you don't get everything just like you want it, and that makes you upset. And so you naturally assume he is lying about working with you.

I am not to worried about equipment,... I never am. .... My Sorceror (who is CG) don't have a single wand or scroll or staff

Yet is *really* bothers you that he will 'charge' you (some amount that you don't know)for the soulknife.... doesn't seem to match up.

Heck, you are complaining that the 4 year old goes to school, because that is *so* ridiculous. Afterall, (in the states) they don't go to school until *5*. Man, calm down, these aren't huge issues.

edit: typo fix

 

[Mistwell]

Mistwell - Maybe you should read the entire thread. I did NOT want my wife to be a half-Celestial OR a Celestial. HE changed her to a Celestial. I chose Half-Celestial myself because that is the only way I can think of to fit my character history into his campaign setting (I don't know anything about the Psionic Handbook, really, as I only have the core 3 books). The city we are in is currently under a sort of a siege. The only safe way in would be to planar travel and "accidentally" dropped in, unless you are saying that the three of us can fight off a host of dragons and evil guys all the way to this city, which is supposed to be at least 15 days travel away from the nearest city towards the middle of nowhere. There is absolutely NO REASON for anyone not of the city to travel to the city.

You wanted free advice from a powerful NPC on your own terms without having to pay a feat for it. THAT was my objection.

I find you assumption that I am a powergamer quite offensive.

Then you need to take RPG boards less seriously. Your DM also thinks you are a powergamer, and every complaint you had was around the idea that you wanted more power than he was allowing you, or that you were too lazy to keep track of things like animals. When a player complains about his DM calling him a powergamer, and then also talks about the DM not letting him have powerful templates (and a flying child and a powerful "effective" wife), and his stats being too low, it often tends to indicate that the player is a power gamer.

In his WoD campaign...In the other campaign, my Sorceror is up the creek without a paddle because of DM "suggestions" and rule changes. I lived with it.

We are not talking about those games, we are talking about how you have behaved in this one so far. You obviously did SOMETHING that made your DM think you were a powergamer. I doubt he pulled it out of thin air.

I also did NOT want special stuff from my background. Nowhere have I mentioned that. What I wanted was to have a family and a life away from adventuring, which is what he preferred (all the other characters have some sort of profession or craft skill, mine is Craft Alchemy, which is why I preferred high Int). He preferred an intricate history that I can roleplay to and I gave him that.

You very specifically made a point of emphasizing "effective" wife. You specifically said you wanted free advice from a being of high power that was your wife. And a flying kid (with crystals...which is a pretty odd concept). THAT is special stuff. That you cannot see that just goes to show that you cannot even see when you are doing things which many people consider powergaming.

I don't know if it is just your normal personality and you are trying to troll me, but if you can't refraiin from tossing powergaming accusations around, please leave. I am trying to find a solution, not engage in a shouting match.

You wanted input on what you posted, and I did so. If I am not allowed to honestly comment on what you posted unless I start from the premise that your perspective must be the only possible correct perspective in this situation, than perhaps you should not ask for open comment on a board. If you cannot accept even the possibility that you might be wrong in this situation, and that a third party with no vested interest in your game might have a more objective perspective on this than you do while you are in the middle of it, then perhaps you should rethink your real motives for posting this thread. I'm no troll...I've been on EnWorld since the very beginning. I'm just being honest...

Either that or insist that he let me play the Half-Orc Commoner that will stupidly charge into battle against anything (I even made a sketch character sheet for this guy already). After a few deaths (at -1 level per death) he should get the idea that I am giving him the longest PC to DM "get bent" in D&D history.

That speaks for itself.