Need help building rogue

[two]

Rogues, rogues

Just a general note:

Rogues, particularly single-class rogues, are probably one of the weakest core classes. (I think they are by far the weakest, but that's me). (Given most standard campaign worlds, not a "thieves's world" setting).

They require a fair amount of tactical planning, and min-maxxing of feats, in order to maximize the number of sneak attacks possible, and even then something as simple as cover/concealment/undead/etc. can render all sneak attacks void. It's not as uncommon as it sounds.

Pretty much any fighter build can be useful and fun to play. Many rogue builds will be fun in certain ways (diplomatic skills, etc.) but utterly useless in combat. Which some people find annoying, both to play and to be in a party with.

Spells can substitute for skills in a pinch (invisibility = hiding, silence spell = move silently, etc.), except for trap disarming.

If you like the sneaky/skill archetype, but want a build that does not require heavy min/maxxing in order to be viable in combat, I'd suggest a straight bard, or a rogue2/barbarianx/somethingY combination.

Rogue2/Barbarian2/Fighter4 or something can really pack a punch when flanking, and has good skills and rage qualities.

Straight rogue, for example, is rather tricky to play without dying. Rogue10 is arguably weak compared to any other straight 10th level core class. Rogue20 is painfully weak, but probably only a bit worse than a fighter20 (fighters get shafted at high levels). But that's not something to worry about at level 1, sorry to distract!

 

[Barak Tiefling]

WOW... thanks a lot for all of the input... I think I have decided to swap out the Cha with the Wis... impulsive yes.. but able to carry more than a bow and some lock picks.. the bluff will come in handy with feint later on... I never noticed that.. as well the arcane trickster does appeal to me, and is something I had never heard of before, Thanks a bunch to everyone that replied.. Now that I have decided to word towards that prestige, and changed the Cha with Wis, is there any other advice that you may have for me in terms of level advancement? I have decided to go with improved initiative for first feat.. but I just want so many that it is hard to decide where to go from there.. I think that any fighter multi classing is going to be harmful later with the exp penalty, am I wrong? Thanks again for all the help guys.
Later
Barak

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

No build advice, you've got some pretty good advice from others already. I would recommend asking your DM if they allow you to make sneak attacks with spells as spelled out in Tome and Blood (basically, any spell that requires you to make an attack roll can be used to make a sneak attack, as long as you meet the usual sneak attack requirements). If your DM allows this, then stock up on spells that require attack rolls - wands of ray of frost and acid splash suddenly become very useful. You can also move up to flank and then sneak attack with melee touch spells such as chill touch and shocking grasp. At higher levels, scorching ray becomes highly useful, since it allows you to fire multiple rays. These spells are especially useful because they merely require you to succeed on a touch attack, and touch ACs tend to be quite low. So when you DM sends some hulking warrior in full plate after you, you can laugh and pepper him with sneak attacks.

Also, feinting is unfortunately not that useful to you, because it can't be used with ranged attacks:

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can't dodge your next attack effectively).

 

[Timely Drought]

Feinting isn't very good without the prestige class to make it a free action. But that's a moot point if you're making an archer rogue / arcane trickster. You'll have to think of other ways to make ranged sneak attacks. Like having a teammate throw tanglefoot bags before charging into melee. Eventually the arcane trickster's impromptu sneak attack will help you get around that but it will be for higher levels.

And I strongly disagree that rogue is a weak core class. It definately requires some thought to use, but it has great strengths. Its use magic device skill makes it an extremely versatile character (though this is less vital here because the group has two divine casters and he is going into arcane trickster). If your DM likes to send your party in trap-filled dungeons, make sure you max out search and disable device, even as cross-class skills for wizard levels (though you pay double for cross-class skills, their maximum remains character level + 3 as long as they are class skills for one of your classes).

One thing isn't clear for me. Are the ability scores you gave with or without the tiefling adjustments? Could you give us the ability scores and the tiefling adjustments seperate?

I'd be wary of having a low score in wisdom but in your case I don't think that's a bad idea. You'll get a great will save with wizard and arcane trickster levels, and there are many spells that protect from mental control (protection from evil to mindblank).

 

[two]

And I strongly disagree that rogue is a weak core class. It definately requires some thought to use, but it has great strengths. Its use magic device skill makes it an extremely versatile character (though this is less vital here because the group has two divine casters and he is going into arcane trickster). If your DM likes to send your party in trap-filled dungeons, make sure you max out search and disable device, even as cross-class skills for wizard levels (though you pay double for cross-class skills, their maximum remains character level + 3 as long as they are class skills for one of your classes).

That's pretty much why I think it's weak. It requires a lot of work (not "some thought," more like a lot of thought) to be combat-ready, and even the most munchkinized rogue is often faced with foes who can't be sneak attacked (for various reasons) and are then pretty much made irrelevant to combat, outside of magic item use. It's not always possible to flank (and rogues dont' always want to get that close), and some beasts are immune even when flanked. Feint only workes in melee, and barring a PRC only allows one attack a round, etc.

There is no other class like this. It's like giving a bunch of monsters 100% magic immunity, rendering Wizards useless against them.

As said before, Rogues requires good tactical play as well, because if you are not careful, flanking vs. a bad guy can mean a full attack vs. the rogue next round which can mean lots of pain (rogues have poor hit points in general, an average AC typically, not great AC). For some reason, many rogue builds don't prioritize constitution over, for example, intelligence, which I think is asking for it big time.

Traps are a real problem. There is no way around it; D&D pretty much makes a rogue required when traps are about. This is pretty lame, and can be gotten around by using the leadship feat at level 6 or 9 to get a rogue cohort (who can disarm traps, use items, and keep from being killed). Or by a nice GM who doesn't use a lot of traps on rogue-deficient parties (or rent-a-rogue, when needed).

As for versitile, Bards win hands down. Same BAB as the rogue, slightly fewer skill points, but spell casting, Use Magic Device as a class skill, etc.

Again, nothing wrong with a Rogue2/some fighting class X or even rogue4/other stuff6. Can be potent.

Just wanted to point out that Rogue10 puts all his eggs in the "sneak attack" basket, which if unavailable gets wearisome. A rogue2/fighter4/barbarian2 can lay some damage down in a variety of ways vs., for example, undead. A pure rogue8 is unhappy, and only marginally effective vs. undead.

For a new player, a straight rogue build is full of potholes, unlike for example a barbarian build or even a fighter build. That's kinda all I was saying. I'd definately multiclass a rogue as a newer-ish player.

 

[Barak Tiefling]

Regards out there again to all those who added their ideas and suggestions.. some points here... the stats that were given had taken into account the racial modifiers of the Tiefling race.. and unfortunaltly (or not) are unchangeable at this point as the DM has the characters and play begins tomorrow for the first time.. so that is a mute point.. as well, thanks for clearing up the issue on feigning for range sneak attacks.. I was pretty happy about that unitl I read the section myself.. it certainly seems that this cannot be used for a ranged sneak attack (but if I am mistaken, please let me know). As well, I am still a bit confused with the suggestions to use any (read ANY) kind of fighter multi classes. I understand the BAB bonus et. al. but my party is pretty stocked for melee (it would seem to me..) and would rather need (likely being the wrong word..) another arcane spell caster, as well as the obvious lack of a "trap-springer" etc. If I were to multi as any fighter type.. I would be getting the exp penalties... unless I was just a rogue-fighter type.. but then my party would have more than enough melee types.. right? Just seems to me that any fighter multi class is a mistake.. please advise if this is incorrect.. Not to seem holier than thou (as I am much less expierienced....) but I would also like to mention that although I have not played D&D in 12 years or so.. I did play alot of D&D 2nd edition, as well as many rpgs both on computer and off, battletech, warhammer etc. etc.. so actually without regards to feats, and a couple of the other newish things in 3rd... I would not call myself a first timer.. or a newbie.. Certainly I realize that a rogue is not a tank.. and does require more thought and less hack and slash to be an effective character... but these are role playing points... are they not? Anyways, thank you all for your help and ideas.. they have been great.. I am planning on following the arcane trickster.. but with an intial heavy rogue influence in order to be relatively sure to be able to do the things required of a thief.. pp, ol, dt.. etc... I think that the improved initiative is the best first choice and then following an archery trail with point blank and so on... after optomizing these.. I will take a look at the arcane areas of feats.. is this the best path? Or should I be looking at some different order? Well, once again a huge thanks to all of those who have responded... I understand that you all have lives that exist not only outside of D&D but outside of my character as well.. hehe.. so many thanks.

 

[Legildur]

Multiclassing can certainly help, but rogues can be quite useful against critters not subject to sneak attacks.

I played a 3.0 halfling rogue (Rgr1/Rog8/Dungeon Delver 3) from 1st through to 12th level (TPK) and he proved extremely useful and a lot of fun. With a potion of darkvision, he could be the forward scout because of ridiculously high spot and listen. With Improved Initiative and a light crossbow of speed, the sneak attack opportunities were nearly endless. And the early warning for the rest of the party was priceless on occasion.

The level of ranger gave him hit points, the Track feat, martial weapon proficiency, two-weapon fighting (and ambidexterity), and a better Fortitude save.

In melee, it would be tumble into position and flank with two daggers and sneak attack for all he was worth.

However, if sneak attacks weren't possible, then he went on the Total Defense and relied on the higher AC (+6 from 5 ranks in Tumble) to keep him alive while critters tried to pound him. A bit of a risk, but it sure saves the Barbarian from taking several extra blows, and allows him to finish the fight quicker.

And UMD is simply wonderful....... Wizard has one too many wands of magic missile, situation is not safe for rogue..... simply sit back and fire it off. Sure, won't work everytime, but every little bit counts.

 

[Darklone]

Going for the Arcane Trickster is best done with Thanees proposal up there. If you're evil and planning for high levels, think about starting with a certain regional feat of FR that gives you martial weapon proficiency, then pick EK levels after you topped the AT levels... and get Practised Spellcaster