Need Help Creating a Human Duelist

[Mr Fidgit]

i think ambidexerity may have been thrown in as a style but-not-necessarily function feat

"why are you smiling?"
"because i know something you don't know. i'm not left handed!"

as far as magic items, just think of the things you might be likely to face. anything with a DR, and you'll really need that magic weapon. the other magic items...your group is severely limited on purchase choices with the 4000 gp cap. with the limited selection, everyone WILL come to the party with similar items, there's no avoiding that. i just thought you may want to buff your AC (headband, gloves, buckler), since you won't have any armor, and you can't buy a weapon of greater than +1 value.

feats: i really like expert tactician from sword and fist, especially if you have levels in rogue. if your Int was 13+, i like expertise (again buffing AC, avoiding damage). if your PC was rogue 3/fighter 4/duelist 2, you'd have 5 all-purpose feats and 3 fighters feats (right?). so, Ambidex, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Expert Tactician, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization

what do you think?

 

[Corwin]

i think ambidexerity may have been thrown in as a style but-not-necessarily function feat

"why are you smiling?"
"because i know something you don't know. i'm not left handed!"

can't... resist... responding...

Every time I hear this I am amazed at the lack of understanding at how this works.

Before I go off, I'll preface this with the fact that I'm fairly certain the writer of the PrC did the same thing you did. They associated ambidexterity with the famous sword fight from Princess Bride. Common mistake and, on the surface, seems right.

However, this is the opposite of what really happens. Think about it.

If Wesley and Inigo really were ambidetrous, what did fighting with their off-hands actually do? Nothing. The whole point of them fighting left handed was to handicap themselves. This could not be the case if they were indeed ambidextrous. There would be no penalty at all.

Ergo, neither of them were ambidextrous.

Anyway, we swapped out the Ambi requirement from the Duelist class and replaced it with Skill Focus (Tumbling).

 

[Mr Fidgit]

Corwin, i do understand that's the way it worked in the movie. but is there any doubt in your mind that it's exactly what they were thinking when they created this PrC?

there's a Dread Pirate PrC, for goodness sake!


(that's why i mentioned 'style, but not function')

 

[Corwin]

Corwin, i do understand that's the way it worked in the movie. but is there any doubt in your mind that it's exactly what they were thinking when they created this PrC?

If you recall, I did say:

Before I go off, I'll preface this with the fact that I'm fairly certain the writer of the PrC did the same thing you did. They associated ambidexterity with the famous sword fight from Princess Bride. Common mistake and, on the surface, seems right.

I then proceeded to state my reasons and how we chose to fix it.

 

[Elric]

Expert Tactician now has prereq Base attack bonus +2 and Combat Reflexes (they reprinted it and changed it in Song and Silence).

Whirlwind Attack really isn't very good, imo. At level 4 (before fireball) it is very strong, but Great Cleave is strong as well. At level 6-7 you get a second attack a round, which makes Whirlwind much less usefull against small groups of enemies (2-3). As soon as you hit level 11-12, you won't use Whirlwind Attack unless completely surrounded. If you have Great Cleave, WWA allows for sick combos. However, it is probably better to have Great Cleave. Also, WWA often means getting yourself flanked. Thus, you either need a lot of HP and Heavy Armor or you need Uncanny Dodge (Unflankable). My character is very vulnerable to flanking (it denies him his Dex and Int bonus) and would probably try to tumble out to avoid being flanked. Taking a level of Monk is a little too much min/maxing for me because it doesn't fit with my character concept- plus, I don't plan on having a very high Wisdom score.

Mr. Fidget- I wasn't blaming you for the magic item problem. I was just commenting on it. Also, I absolutely need to take Weapon Finesse for the attack bonus.

 

[Corwin]

Originally posted by Elric
Taking a level of Monk is a little too much min/maxing for me...

Yeah, min/maxing is lame... that's why you are on here looking for advice on how to best make your character...

And lets just forget about the potential for great role-playing opportunities or reasons for taking it in the first place. Just having it on paper screams "munchkin", right?

To each his/her own.

Does your DM know you are on here petitioning for advice?

 

[Elric]

First of all, I don't think that this character can't be a particularly effective fighter. Str below 13 makes min/maxing hard.

If I had envisioned the character as a Monk (or former Monk), I wouldn't view it as min/maxing. However, I envisioned the character as a Rogue/(Ranger or Fighter). Being able to punch people would be cool, actually, but that's not enough to justify the monk level. Increasing his Str would be too much min/maxing as well. I don't know what feats he's going to take, so making the more effective isn't too much min\/maxing. Hope this makes some sense.

Edit- I told my DM about this thread. There's already a character with 31 Str, so I should be ok.

 

[dead_radish]

The "standard" build for a duelist is rogue 3/fighter 4. That gets weapon focus, weapon specialization, +2d6 sneak attack when flanking, evasion, uncanny dodge I (Which is absolutely required for a duelist), good attacks, good saves.

The other amusing path is the pure monk - use siaghams as your weapon - they are piercing, 1-h weapons, so they work. Then you get wis, dex and int to ac, precise strike with monk bab, and flurry of blows. Not bad.

Expertise is a necessary feat. Tumble is your bestest friend. Chink in the Armor (I think it's called - +1 attack vs. armored foes) is nice. Power attack is actually nice, as you can add to damage with it.

Consider going into shadow dancer at some point too - hopping into shadows, then springing out to hit is fun.

Gloves of AC and amulet of natural armor are good. Rapier +1 is required. Boots of striding and springing let you get in, and get out.

Also consider asking your DM about parrying rules - there are some excellent examples to be found on the boards.

 

[Elric]

My character concept doesn't really include Monk, although I have to admit liking the Siangham idea.

This character doesn't have the Str to get Power Attack. Expertise seems to lower your chances to hit too much. +5 AC is great, but -5 to hit is terrible. On the other hand, I haven't played a character with Expertise before. Why do you consider it so critical? I only get 4k per item, although I think the DM might give everyone a "4.5k exception" for a +2 armor/shield item. The Boots are also out of my price range, after their errata.

Tumble is indeed great. What do you think of the Combat Reflexes-Expert Tactician route? Chink in the armor requires a standard action to use, but lets you ignore half of a target's armor. It seems more for ninja-esque characters who are very good at hiding or characters with large Sneak Attack bonuses. Also, how useful is Spring Attack? It seems like Tumble makes Spring Attack less useful than it would be otherwise (since both do similar things). Is it still worth taking?

Remember that I will probably have 3 open feats (possibly 4) and Dodge, Mobility, Ambidextrous and weapon finesse in my chosen melee weapon. So, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician and Spring Attack would take all 3.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i orginally suggested expertise, along with all of the magic items to boost your AC, simply because you won't be wearing armor.

another thing to keep in mind, is that you don't have to use expertise all of time, but it would be really handy when facing CR 9+ monsters you know have great chances of hitting you.