Need Help Creating a Human Duelist

[Chun-tzu]

The Auspician from Faiths and Pantheons would nicely round out a swashbuckler. It's a PrC that gets some very nice bonuses related to good luck. It's designed more for spellcasters, though, and requires at least one level of Cleric (you need access to the Luck domain).

Did you know next month's Dragon is about swashbuckling?

Next Month: Dragon 301
The next issue of Dragon Magazine offers what you need for swashbuckling style: character types, new weapons, swashbuckling feats, stunts, duels, fencing styles, new rules for firearms, new uses for skills, and parrying rules!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

My character concept doesn't really include Monk, although I have to admit liking the Siangham idea.

This character doesn't have the Str to get Power Attack. Expertise seems to lower your chances to hit too much. +5 AC is great, but -5 to hit is terrible. On the other hand, I haven't played a character with Expertise before. Why do you consider it so critical? I only get 4k per item, although I think the DM might give everyone a "4.5k exception" for a +2 armor/shield item. The Boots are also out of my price range, after their errata.

Tumble is indeed great. What do you think of the Combat Reflexes-Expert Tactician route? Chink in the armor requires a standard action to use, but lets you ignore half of a target's armor. It seems more for ninja-esque characters who are very good at hiding or characters with large Sneak Attack bonuses. Also, how useful is Spring Attack? It seems like Tumble makes Spring Attack less useful than it would be otherwise (since both do similar things). Is it still worth taking?

Remember that I will probably have 3 open feats (possibly 4) and Dodge, Mobility, Ambidextrous and weapon finesse in my chosen melee weapon. So, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician and Spring Attack would take all 3.

Spring Attack--utility for a duelist very high as long as you are not the party's meatshield fighter (who can't keep moving because he has to stay between the bad guys and the squishies). Why? Because, with precise strike, you can do consistent high damage without a full attack action. And by spring attacking, you deny your opponent full attack actions as well. Since your opponent probably doesn't have precise strike, you are denying your opponent the opportunity to make full attacks which are more advantageous to him than to you. In addition, if you do have a meat shield fighter in the party, the bad guy will need to incur an AoO from him in order to engage you.

Combat Reflexes/Expert Tactician. Expert Tactician in several situations: 1. You can bluff as an MEA (in this case you can make two attacks at your full attack bonus instead of iterative attacks and one of them is a sneak attack. 2. You have access to the blink spell. 3. You have incredible initiative and rely upon that to always win initiative. 4. Your party wizard is very fond of effects like improved invisibility (on you), blindness/deafness, and glitterdust all of which usually deny your opponents their dex bonusses.

However, for a duelist character who uses spring attack, combat reflexes/Hold the Line might be a more attractive option. If you consistently spring attack, your opponent will often need to charge in order to engage you (especially if you hit him with a tanglefoot bag). Congratulations, you just got an AoO. Spring attack, rinse and repeat.

Expertise also has good synergy with spring attack. Your primary attack will usually hit--especially if you use spring attack to get a flanking attack and then move away--so you will probably be able to afford to pump a few points into AC.

Even if this is not the case, Expertise can be a good way to outlast time limited effects or use time dependant effects (potions of shielding if the bad guys use them, barbarian rage, wounding weapons etc.) If already have a reasonable AC (let's assume 25 for a 7th-8th level character--that's a 20 dex, 16 int, +4 mage armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 buckler) you can pump it to a point that bad guys have trouble hitting you with expertise. Taking my previous example, you apply full expertise and fighting defensively for -9 to hit and +8 (+5 expertise, +3 fighting defensively with 5 ranks of tumble) to AC. This puts the character's AC at 33. A typical brute foe (8th level raging 18 str barbarian with weapon focus and a masterwork weapon) might have a +16/+11 attack bonus. Said character now needs to roll a 16 to hit you. However, the AC on said foe is most likely only 14 (+4 chain shirt, +2 dex, -2 rage). Consequently, even with -9, you will still hit on a roll of a 9 (+7 BAB, +5 weapon finesse, +1 masterwork weapon, +1 weapon focus -5 expertise, -4 fighting defensively=+6/+1). Using expertise, spring attack, and fighting defensivly, odds are that the barbarian will only hit you once or twice before his rage runs out. After that, he will need a natural 20 in order to hit you and you will still hit on a 9. It takes a while but you danced around his blade and gave him (precise) papercuts with your rapier until he died.

Items--20k with a 4k max.
+2 Buckler 4k--16k remaining
+2 Bracers of Armor (unless there's a friendly wizard or sorc to give you mage armor--if so, sub this out for a ring of protection +1 and get a Hewards Handy Haversack and Tanglefoot bags with the change) 4k--12k remaining
+1 rapier 2k--10k remaining
+2 cloak of resistance--6k remaining
+2 Gloves of dexterity--2k remaining
Miscelaneous potions, daggers, mundane items, etc. All remaining gold.

If you're short on gold, I'd probably sacrifice the magic rapier first. +1 isn't that much better than masterwork (especially if your DM lets you buy a silvered rapier). You'll need the party wizard or cleric to cast GMW on you if you want to actually hurt anything with DR (at your level, most DRs are x/+2) anyway.

 

[Elric]

Do Bracers of Armor stack with a Buckler? I'm not sure if they do.

I love the Spring Attack/Hold the Line combination. It eats up 3 feats, but gives the character an entirely new way to fight combats. I can go a little over the 20k gold cap- I have 24k but wanted to keep at least a couple thousand gold in reserve. I also definitely need the magic rapier, because DR/+1 is pretty common and I need the damage boost.

Good point about Expertise. Unfortunately, the heavy armor wearing tanks have AC in the 20s. It is a great way to beat Barbarians.

Chun-tzu- thanks for the heads up. Anyone want to send me their copy when they're done with it? Since my DM probably won't have it, I'm not sure how much stuff I'll be able to use from it.

 

[drnuncheon]

If Wesley and Inigo really were ambidetrous, what did fighting with their off-hands actually do? Nothing. The whole point of them fighting left handed was to handicap themselves. This could not be the case if they were indeed ambidextrous. There would be no penalty at all.

They were handicapping themselves - they were only getting half of their strength bonus to damage.

J

 

[Elric]

What does everyone think of Hamstring? It is a great feat if you can get a sneak attack, then Spring Attack them to death. However, it might be too dependent on getting sneak attacks and long combats for it to really matter. The same could be said about Hold the Line- since I am not a front-line fighter, I am unlikely to have enemies charging at me during a battle.

In fact, almost all of my character's proposed feats are much better in well, one on one duels than party-enemy combat. For example, Expertise might suffer from the problem that my character kills less enemies when he uses it and enemies who cannot hit him are more likely to attack other party members.

I think that my DM's fencing instructor choreographed the fight scene in The Princess Bride. Do you think that it will make him more or less likely to swap the Ambidextrous requirement for a feat that doesn't contradict the best ability of the class?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Yes, bracers of armor do stack with a buckler even though mage armor does not. (Oops). Bracers of armor grant an armor bonus "just as though he [their wearer] were wearing armor." Since armor bonusses provided by armor stack with a shield (such as a buckler) and bracers of armor provide a bonus "just as though" they were armor, it logically follows that they would stack.

Technically, since mage armor does not have that prhase, the armor bonus it provides will not stack with the armor bonus provided by a shield. Permitting such stacking is a common house rule though.

Re: Expertise--I think it would work even better against tank-fighters.

Do Bracers of Armor stack with a Buckler? I'm not sure if they do.

I love the Spring Attack/Hold the Line combination. It eats up 3 feats, but gives the character an entirely new way to fight combats. I can go a little over the 20k gold cap- I have 24k but wanted to keep at least a couple thousand gold in reserve. I also definitely need the magic rapier, because DR/+1 is pretty common and I need the damage boost.

Good point about Expertise. Unfortunately, the heavy armor wearing tanks have AC in the 20s. It is a great way to beat Barbarians.

An 8th level 18 strength fighter with masterwork weapon and weapon focus would attack at +14/+9. If your AC were 33 as was supposed in the previous example, he would need a 19 to hit you. Supposing an AC of 24 (quite good really--I assume the fighter is using a shield) your +6 attack would hit on a roll of an 18. So you have the advantage. But it gets better. You're spring attacking (5 foot step then move 25 feet away) so that he has to charge you in order to be able to attack. Consequently, you have two attacks for each attack he has (and he hits on a 17 and you hit on a 16 because of the charge bonus/penalties). And since you have precise strike and he has a one-handed weapon, you actually do more damage than him. If you stop fighting defensively, he still needs a 14 to hit you and you only need a 12 to hit him. Remove expertise from the equation and now he's hitting on a 9 and you're hitting on a 7. Not nearly so much of an advantage. (Of course since this tank is a fighter, he's not going to run out of rage so stalling doesn't get you much. Also you'll have to worry about things like sunder and readied trip attacks (and the improved trip feat)). OTOH, the whole fight plays out differently if you get one or two points more AC. In that case, your foe needs a 19 or 20 to hit you and you can afford to go toe to toe hitting on a 16. You'll dish out the damage quicker than your foe will.

In any case, expertise can be used if you need to plug a hole in the party line or stand over a front line fighter's body while a cleric heals him. Alternately, expertise can be used to negate the AC penalty if you want to charge but you don't want the AC penalty.

As to the character being more suited to one on one duels than party v. party fights, that's why the class is called a duellist . There's not really a whole lot you can do about that. (Although spring attack is great for getting a flank for a sneak attack on your foes without putting yourself at undue risk--you could contribute a lot of damage that way). You can also always try challenging enemies to a duel every now and then just to show off. (Duellist "Hey you. Yeah, you--the ugly, hairy brute whose mother was a bear. I challenge you to a duel--just you and me. My skill against your stupidity. If I win you and your tribe of ignorant barbarians leave us all in peace." Barbarian "Me carve you like elk, little man. You have sword or you die with that little thing?")

 

[Elric]

Elder-Basilisk: Hold the Line-Spring Attack-Expertise is a great combination for dueling. The main problem at this level stems from the spell Haste.

An enemy with Haste makes Spring Attack worthless (especially at level 11+ when you have 3 attacks) since they can just follow you with their hasted action and hit you with a full attack. For this reason, Hold the Line is much less useful- the enemy doesn't need to charge to reach you unless you move at over double their speed. Spring Attack takes a full-action, so using it with Haste does not even allow you to get your full number of attacks.

This character concept seems to be working out badly. The sheer number of bad feats that I have to take (Dodge, Mobility, Ambi, Weapon Finesse) removes most of the character's options. He can continue down the feat chain that he has already started on and get a couple more specialized feats which, although good in certain situations, are bad in general. His next ability, Enhanced Mobility is rendered almost worthless (just like Mobility) by Tumble, a skill. When he gets Elaborate Parry he'll have a ridiculous AC, but that's a long time from now. Maybe the entire concept (a relatively effective light, low-Str fighter who is good in a wide variety of situations and doesn't depend entirely on Sneak Attack) is simply unworkable at these levels, and equipment values.