Need help - re-costing OLD spells

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
The final verison of OLD 1.2 is ready to go. The only final thing is the costing of the example spells.

If anybody has time to help me with this and cost them all out, I'll send them a free hardcover of v1.2. First come first served!

So -- every example spell, using the current version of the magic chapter, with the following change to durations which is going into the final version:

0) instantaneous
1) 1 round
2) concentration
3) 1 minute
5) 1 hour
7) 8 hours
9) 1 day
14) 1 week
17) 1 month
22) 1 year
23) 99 years
25) permanent

And - I don't think this affects any of the exiting spells - this new Transform enhancement:

"Bulk Transform. Rather than simply changing the terrain's surface (as in Difficult Terrain), this transforms bulk material in entire 5-ft cubes. The effect must fit within the spell's area, but in addition the spell costs 3 MP per 5' cube. This also applies to large structures such as castle walls, or to digging out ground (by transforming stone to air or similar) for the duration of the spell."
 

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BlckKnght

Explorer
So I've started in on this, but many of the spells will need to be changed to work with the new durations table you give (e.g. there's no 5 or 10 minute duration any more), and some others are currently using invalid casting times (e.g. two rounds). I'm also not entirely sure if the cost of a Contingency should round half the duration cost up or down (the old approach of just increasing or decreasing the duration to an even cost often isn't available since there are a bunch of odd costs in a row now in the 3-9 MP price range that I expect many spells will use).

In looking around the chapter, it seems a few examples outside of the fully baked spells will also need updates (e.g. the contingency example on p176 mentions the wrong cost for a 1 day duration. And it's unrelated to the change in duration costs (or any other 1.1 to 1.2 change), but I'm also not really sure why the transform metal lock picking spell from the example sequence on page 174 is described by the GM as having a cost of 1 MP and has a range of 10 feet when the player is already planning on touching the target. Can't it cost 0?

Anyway, I'll update later with what I get done tonight. It's been slow going so far, as I'm still learning what the 1.1->1.2 changes are, but hopefully I'll get faster.

Edit: Here's the first third or so of the spells. I'll work on more tomorrow. My pace did pick up a bit. Many spells have comments attached about problems or changes they need. I often give two or three different prices, depending on which option is chosen for a change (mostly two-round casting times that need to become one action or one minute, and 5 or 10 minute durations that need to become 1 minute or 1 hour).
  • Airship: 19 MP: 18 MP Telekinesis, 2 MP duration, -1 MP casting time
  • Ambush of the Coward: 24 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 16 MP elemental damage rider, 3 MP duration
  • Antipresence: 11 MP: 2 MP targeted antimagic, 7 MP duration, 2 MP Area
  • Arctic Blast: Unchanged
  • Aspect of the Phoenix: 21 or 22 MP: 18 MP resurrection, 4 MP duration (with contingency), -1 or -0 casting time (needs to pick 1 minute or 1 action, old casting time of two rounds isn't valid any more)
  • Beastform: 9 or 11 MP: 6 MP transform creature, 3 or 5 MP duration (old duration of 5 minutes is no longer possible, can go down to one minute, or up to 1 hour, both are more expensive)
  • Bless Weapon: 5 or 7 MP, 2 MP elemental touch, 3 or 5 MP for duration (10 minutes must become 1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Bolster Undead: 5 MP (the 1.1 cost probably should have been 7 MP, 3 MP was wrong): 2 MP healing, 3 MP area
  • Burglar's Slip: 9 MP: 5 MP teleport, 1 MP area, 3 MP duration (could perhaps be kept at 7 MP by reducing the duration to 1 round)
  • Call for Aid: 7 MP: 2 MP clairaudience, 2 MP create sound rider, 3 MP duration
  • Call of Youth: 16 MP: 9 MP de-age, 7 MP duration
  • Chameleon Cloak: 4 or 6 MP: 1 MP simple visual illusion, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Concussive Fireblast: 8 MP: 2 MP fire damage, 2 MP air damage, 4 MP area
  • Counterscry: Not sure how the "up to one minute" duration after the spell triggers should be costed here. Maybe it's free? Also the duration of the contingent part seems to have changed from 1 day in 1.1 to 8 hours in 1.2. Anyway, a 1 day version would be: 10 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 2 MP claraudience, 4 MP contingency duration, -1 MP casting time
  • Create Food and Water: The "enduring object" effect used by this spell is not described in the "Create" section, so I can't price it
  • Demonbind: 12 or 14 MP: 5 MP greater binding, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), 2 MP range, 2 MP area
  • Desert Cloak: 3 or 4 MP: 0 MP cantrip effect, 1 or 2 MP discounted duration (1 hour or 1 day), 2 MP area.
  • Detect Magic: 7 MP: 1 MP dousing, 3 MP duration, 3 MP area
  • Dimensional Sanctum: 18 or 19 MP: 12 MP 100 foot pocket dimension, 7 MP duration, -1 or -0 casting time (1 minute or 1 round)
  • Diogenes's Deshackling: The cost in the book makes no sense, nor does the explanation about it needing to be a signature spell (nothing in the Signature Spell exploit talks about adding target limitations or reducing costs, it's just about casting speed). This seems like a generic ranged dispel magic spell, 2 MP + cost of the target spell, not sure why it has a duration.
  • Dispelling Gaze: Unchanged
  • Domineer: 17 MP: 4 MP compulsion (extreme), 3 MP subtle compulsion, 1 MP senselink, 7 MP duration, 2 MP range
  • Draco Slavu: 13 or 15: 4 MP charm (extreme), 3 MP subtle enchantment, 3 MP range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Dry Campsite: 5 or 10 MP: 0 MP cantrip effect, 2 or 7 MP duration (either using the 1 day reduced duration cost for basic abjuration spells, or the normal cost for an 8 hour duration), 3 MP area
  • Elemental Spirit: 10 or 12 MP: 2 MP elemental damage, 5 MP withstanding, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) (note, this spell should be noted as Abjure Fire/Evoke Fire)
  • Entangling Vines: 9 MP: 0 MP difficult terrain, 0 MP terrain damage, 3 MP range, 3 MP area, 3 MP duration
  • Festival of Dreams: 19 MP: 3 MP average visual, 3 MP average audio, 4 MP average tactile, 1 MP simple olfactory, 4 MP reactive illusion, -4 MP bundled senses, 5 MP duration, 2 MP range, 1 MP area
I'd add that many cantrip effects probably should be updated for the new duration rules. If 0 MP spells all have to be instantaneous, the effects that are described as working for a minute probably need to be changed.
 
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BlckKnght

Explorer
All right, here's the rest of the spells:
  • Field of Weakness: 9-12 MP: 4 MP drain attribute, 3 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)
  • Firebolt: Unchanged
  • Flaming Barrier: 12 or 14 MP: 6 MP elemental object area, 2 MP range, 1 MP creation elemental damage, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Friendship: 7 or 9 MP: 3 MP charmed condition (severe), 1 mp range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Greasepatch: 8 MP: 2 MP slick, 2 MP range, 1 MP area, 3 MP duration
  • Healing Burst: 4 MP: 1 MP healing, 3 MP area
  • Healing Dose: 1 MP: 1 MP healing
  • Hey, Look! We're Cats: 10 or 12 MP: 3 MP average visual, 3 MP average audio, -1 MP bundled senses, 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Icewall: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP creation, 2 MP range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Inevitability: 10 MP: 10 MP aging, -3 MP duration spread (maybe?), 3 MP duration (Duration spread logic is sort of busted with the new duration table)
  • Infantry's Boon: 7 MP: 2 MP soak, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration
  • Invisibility: 8 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 3 MP duration
  • Invisibility, Inscrutable: 12 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 5 MP complex audio illusion, -1 bundled senses, 3 MP duration
  • Lesser Gaze of the Gorgon: 18 MP (or 12 against a willing target): 8 MP De-animate, 6 MP unwilling target, 1 MP range, 3 MP duration
  • Lightning Trap: 8 MP: 4 MP elemental damage, 4 MP duration with contingency
  • Lupus Ally: 10-13 MP: 4 MP summoning, 4 MP compulsion (severe), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)
  • Mage Armor: 7 or 9 MP: 4 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Mage Plate: 11 or 13 MP: 8 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Mage's Thrust: Unchanged
  • Maleficent Misfortune: 9 MP: 4 MP curse, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration
  • Mantle of Antimagic: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP antimagic, 1 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Mask of Nothingness: 24 or 26 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 5 MP complex audio, 8 MP complex tactile, 6 MP complex olfactory, -3 MP bundled senses, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Mend Gear: 1 MP: 1 MP healing
  • Mind Blast: The Dazed condition is no longer possible from enchantment, maybe use Confused instead? Its cost would be 12 MP: 4 MP area, 1 MP discerning, 4 MP charm (severe Confused condition), 3 MP duration
  • Mind Wipe: 15 MP: 6 MP mindwipe, 3 MP subtle compulsion, 7 MP duration, -1 MP casting time (1 minute, required by mindwipe addon) (not sure why this used to have a range cost)
  • Murder of Crows: 11 or 13 MP: 2 MP transform creature, 6 MP splitting, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Nightmare Beast: 17 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration
  • Nightmare Incarnate: 22 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 4 MP area, 3 MP duration, 4 MP charm (severe frightened)
  • Pocket Armory: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP create object (1200 gc, though creation spell costs really should be explained better, do the MP spent on the area and maybe the duration count here?), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Prince into Toad: 12 or 13: 2 MP transform, 6 MP unwilling target, 7 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)
  • Protection from Evil: 4 MP: 1 MP hedging, 3 MP duration
  • Rain Dance: I have no idea how the cost is arrived at for this spell. It currently lists 2 MP as the creation cost, but there maybe should only be 1 (elemental damage) or none? The air damage section says the duration needs to be at least 10 minutes, but that's not a valid duration any more. It's also not really clear what happens with a 10 minute duration for a storm that takes 10 minutes to develop. It's a mess!
  • Remedy: Not exactly sure what the "remove all conditions" effect means (maybe just 10 levels of conditions?). Something similar might be: 19 MP: 10 MP remove up to 5 severe conditions, 5 MP negate poison, 3 MP duration (though the duration might be too expensive for an extra side effect)
  • Rescue Featherfall: 5 MP: 1 MP featherfall, 4 MP duration with contingency
  • Reshaping: This one benefits from the new bulk transformation effect! 6 MP: 3 MP bulk transformation (one 5' square), 3 MP duration
  • Roaming Eye: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 1 MP telekinesis, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Scintillating Evening Wear: I still don't really understand creation spell costs (do you pay for an area, and then pay for the area again for the creation effect?). This one might be 8 MP: 2 MP elemental object, 1 MP area, 5 MP duration
  • Searing Fireball: 9 MP: 4 MP fire damage, 3 MP range, 2 MP area
  • Shield of Glory: 9 or 11 MP: 6 MP shielding, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Shrieking Wall: 8 MP: 1 MP damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area (line), 3 MP duration
  • Sic 'Em: 10 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Angry), 1 MP targeted enchantment, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration
  • Spellguard: 8 or 10 MP: 6 MP dispel magic, 2 or 4 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour)
  • Spookiness: 9 MP: 1 MP simple audio, 1 MP simple tactile, 2 MP area, 5 MP duration with contingency
  • Stormbolt: 9 MP: 4 MP lightning damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 1 MP discerning
  • Soulswitch: 12 MP: 5 MP possession, 7 MP duration
  • Telepresence: All the non-divination effects should be riders on the scrying, so double cost. My best guess is 20 or 21 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 2 MP clairaudience, 4 MP create sound rider (not really sure about this cost, are we paying for an area?), 2 MP complex sound rider, 6 MP average visual illusion rider, 2 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)
  • Thermonuclear Detonation: This spell is impossibly expensive now. 41 MP: 40 MP time hop (10 rounds), 1 MP duration (1 round to activate)
  • Titanic Might: Unchanged, but the itemized cost has a typo (10 MP should be 20, the top-line number is right)
  • Toast to Unconsciousness: Unchanged
  • Troll's Tenacity: 18 MP: 18 MP healing (10d6), -3 MP duration spread (not sure this makes sense any more), 3 MP duration
  • Turncoat: 11 MP: 4 MP compulsion (severe), 1 MP telepathic command, 4 MP range, 2 MP duration
  • Turn Undead: 8 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Afraid), 2 MP area, 2 MP duration (no idea why this used to be discerning)
  • Vine Chains: 14 MP: 5 MP immobilize, 3 MP range, 3 MP area, 3 MP duration (note a 1 MP cheaper version could be made with Create instead of Transform, no idea what the differences would be)
  • Wallbuilder's Blessing: Unchanged
  • Watery Grave: This probably needs to use the new bulk transformation effect, and thus becomes impossibly expensive (a 50' diameter area is more than seventy-five 5' squares, so MP cost will be >200)
  • Winter's Embrace: 16-19 6 MP withstanding, 4 MP vulnerability, 2 MP discerning (1 MP twice), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)
  • Word of Sleep: 7 MP: 2 MP charm (normal Sleeping condition), 2 MP range, 3 MP duration
I'm rounding up contingency costs now (and edited the post above to do the same).

One spell (Reshaping) became cheaper using the new bulk transformation effect, if I applied it correctly (in place of an object size). Another one (Watery Grave) would become impossibly expensive because of it (using it instead of an area of effect cost).

As you might notice in a number of my comments along with the spells, I'm not sure I understand the costing of creation spells (I've written about this in a few previous threads). It's never clear if you need to pay for the area or gold cost as part of the create object or elemental object effect, or if you just pay for the area normally and get the creation for free (or both?). Existing spells in the list do it several different ways, so I'm no wiser after having read them all carefully. I mostly left the creation costs unchanged in the existing spells, but I have no confidence that they're correct. The Transform effects that involve sizes and costs are much more clear.

A few other things that came up while reviewing the spells:
  • Spread durations don't make much sense any more. You can cast an instantaneous spell for the same cost as one spread over a 1 minute duration (if I did the math right), so I have no idea why you'd spread it out at all.
  • I'm also not clear on what the difference is between a Restraining creation effect and an Immobilizing transformation effect. The latter is 1 MP more expensive for no obvious reason.
  • A ton of the low-end spells got a lot more expensive, as the cost of a 1 minute duration went from 0 to 3 MP. Similar issues appear with the lack of a 2-round casting time (which used to give a 2 MP discount for a low burden), now you either do without a discount, or take a full minute to cast.
  • I suspect many of the spells that used to be 4-5 MP and are now close to double that at 7-10 MP should be replaced in the example spell list, as they no longer serve their previous purpose (of being readily usable by novice mages).
  • Some mid-high level spells (especially illusions) that used to be listed as 15-ish MP are now 20+ MP and are probably out of reach for even many experienced casters. Maybe they should be replaced too.
  • On the other hand, evocation and healing magic got cheaper, especially at the low end (the first two damage or healing dice are half cost). So maybe replace some of the spells that took huge MP cost hits with new evocations?
  • Or just generally add new instantaneous spells.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Fantastic. Thank you! If you PM your address, I'll make sure you get a free hardcover when it's ready. :)
 

BlckKnght

Explorer
The answer to that is you pay for the area OR the gp value, whichever is higher.
So then Pocket Armory, at least is miscosted. It should be 2 MP less, since you pay for the creation of the 1200 GC worth of value which is more than the 2 MP needed for the area. There are a few other spells that pay 1 or 2 MP for a basic creation effect and it's not always clear why.
 

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