Need help with Dragon Tactics

[Grant_Stoom]

Here's the situation:

My party is going up against a Great Wyrm Red Dragon tonight, and we need some serious tactical help. Party consists of:

Me: Wizard 15, Amg 3 With Mastery of Shaping, Elements, and 2/day Prismatic Spray as spell like abilities.
18th Cleric
17th Tiefling Rogue
18th Monk
18th Barbarian
20th level Fighter/Rogue/Arcane Archer/etc.

This is the biggest baddest dragon in our world. On top of high SR, godly saves, immense Strength, he's a 20th level Sorceror. Due to his scrying nature, he knows we're coming so he'll be prepared. Plus, he'll be able to study our tactics while we fight off his minions on the way to his lair.

So... the cleric and I have the most flexibility in terms of preparing spells ahead of time. What kind of tactics should we use? Prep spells, battle spells...

Dragons don't have many weaknesses. Low touch AC, low Dex, double damage from cold spells. That's pretty much it. I'll want to have lots of no save/no SR spells to have any chance of affecting it. I'm willing to burn XP on powerful spells. (Might as well - it beats dying) And knowing that he's a 20th Sorc - what defenses do you think the dragon will have ready?

I was thinking along the lines of:
while
Time Stop
-Gate in a Balor
-Gate in a Balor
-Acid Fog around dragon changed to do cold damage thanks to Archamge ability

Then try to hit it with Enervation, Waves of Exhaustion, Polar Rays, Ray of Enfeeblement. Heck - multiple Rays of Enfeeblement. It'd have to beat his SR so bleh. I have Greater spell penetration so the SR is beatable but it's a 50/50 shot. I also thought about using Gate for multiple Night Hags who can Ray of Enfeeblement at will (plus they're immune to fire). I will also be shapechanged into a Pit Fiend so no worry about the breath weapon for me.

Good thing about the Balors is the chance for the severed head. Plus if they die, they nuke everything in the area for 100 damage. This would, however, be not so good for the frontline fighters. But you have to break some eggs to make an omelet, imo.

So - any suggestions? Our DM is out for blood and has been chanting TPK TPK TPK (total party kill) for the past two weeks.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Red Great Worm + 20 levels of Sorcerer = ~CR45 challenge, no?

CR45 challenge vs. 20th-level party = TPK, whatever you try.

(Am i missing something?)

AR

 

[Nail]

Due to his scrying nature, he knows we're coming so he'll be prepared. ...

Given this: If your DM is for real, you are so screwed. So very badly screwed. You should stop and do something else. Seriously.

BTW: Does your DM make you roll Will saves when the dragon scrys? He should.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

1) You're assuming you win initiative... Chances are the dragon will... Then it'll

Time Stop
-gate Balor
-gate Balor
-teleport 1 mile straight up

nxt rnd:
sits back and watches the fight

Or half a dozen other more valid tactics.

Points been made - Great Wyrm Red Dragon = CR ~25 + Sorc 20 = ~45CR = TOASTY PARTY.

I sure hope your DM is a member of BADD. Then it will be a TPK and there's not much you can do about it short of asking for divine intervention and convincing your deities to fight for you...

 

[Nail]

Red Great Worm + 20 levels of Sorcerer = ~CR45 challenge, no?

CR45 challenge vs. 20th-level party = TPK, whatever you try.

(Am i missing something?)

AR

Yep.

Those Sor levels are part of the normal dragon package. they're already included in the CR.

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells

Nasty enough for you?

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Yep.

Those Sor levels are part of the normal dragon package. they're already included in the CR.



Nasty enough for you?

Correction: The Dragons have Sorc Abilities that are included in the CR. However, it is still only a Dragon.


The GM may, at her discretion, add CLASS levels to any creature, upping that creatures CR by the number of class levels added.

I'll never forget the look on my party's face the first time they faced bugbears with 6 class levels each, split amongst barb, rog, and sorc. (long story)

regardless - if 20 levels of sorc were added to the dragon, this would STACK with the natural sorc abilities of the dragon, thus are NOT included with the CR.

So CR ~45 is about right. Dragons are the nasties creature in the game, and an old enough dragon whose gone into epic levels can nearly match the gods themselves.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Those Sor levels are part of the normal dragon package. they're already included in the CR.

Ah. OK.

Nevertheless, a CR26 monster vs a <20th level party... I still say bye bye party.

AR

 

[Nail]

BTW, a Great Wyrm Red Dragon's CR is 26. Arguably, this CR is still (despite 3.5e) too low.

Against your party (APL = 18) this challenge qualifies as "deadly". (And let's pretend the dragon doesn't have any help when you finally face him. => Yeah, right.)

 

[Nail]

Correction: The Dragons have Sorc Abilities that are included in the CR. However, it is still only a Dragon.


The GM may, at her discretion, add CLASS levels to any creature, upping that creatures CR by the number of class levels added.

I think at this stage you have to assume the player doesn't know the details, so him saying "20 levels of Sor" could be a misunderstanding. We really don't have the facts of this case.

Me, I think the DM is yanking your chain. Not that DMs would ever do such a thing, but it's entirely possible this dragon is not all he's been cracked up to be.

......'Cause if he is, you're meat. And your pretty little dog too.

 

[Grant_Stoom]

Yep.

It's factored into the CR, (not 20 extra levels of sorc - just what dragons get naturally) and this dragon is one of those "can cast from the cleric list" variety. So we get to expect Heals on itself too. YAY!

Haven't made a will save yet. Would it prevent the scrying or just alert us to it?

So is the Balor idea bunk? Maybe on a lucky crit the Balor would insta kill it. What other ideas are there? Going for an Otto's Irresistable Conga and pray that some maximized Cones of Cold can whittle him down - (for him to heal himself). Ability damage could also be whisked away.

I'll fill ya in on the results tomorrow, but I'm guessing TPK in a major way.