Need help with Gestalt character

[Drowbane]

From WotC. Sneak attack trumps Sudden Strike since for all purposes Sudden Strike is merely an inferior version of Sneak attack. Skirmish is mildly different since it applies to a completely seperate set of circumstances than either of them, but sneak attack still trumps it. So if your 10th level character has 5d6 sneak attack and 2d6 skirmish, and you skirmish over to attack an enemy your ally is flanking then you get 5d6 in sneak attack...(snip)

Thats all very interesting, but where are you getting this? Does it not say in Complete Adventurer that Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike (as well as Skirmish) stack (rather than overlap, as you're suggestioning?).

Can this be found anywhere official? Hell, I'd take "in the ballpark of official"... such as FAQ (not that the typical FAQ rep understands the game).

Personally, I'd take the Rogue | Warlock version anyways... Warlocks are fun like that.

There. That is all. There isn't anymore. Goodnight.

And assuming Stonedog doesn't wish to back all this up with some actual rules, anybody have a half-way decent answer?

 

[Thanee]

Thats all very interesting, but where are you getting this? Does it not say in Complete Adventurer that Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike (as well as Skirmish) stack (rather than overlap, as you're suggestioning?).

Actually, if they stack, that's strong evidence, that you would only get one and not both in a Gestalt situation, since they are then considered to be pretty much the same thing.

But that is something, that is not perfectly clear in the Gestalt rules for sure, and left open to the interpretation of the reader, how it will work precisely in any given game.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Stone Dog]

Thats all very interesting, but where are you getting this? Does it not say in Complete Adventurer that Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike (as well as Skirmish) stack (rather than overlap, as you're suggestioning?).

Yes it does. That is because Complete Adventurer is an official sourcebook with official rules that are supported and clarified by official faqs and erratas. Unearthed Arcana is a collection of unofficial rules that are not and will not be supported by official faqs or erratas. The only way to get any word on these rules is to email WotC customer service and ask them directly. I did this sometime ago as I said before and recieved clarification and the reason why UA doesn't get any official support or clarification.

One last time, yes in normal play they do stack because multiclassing is (mostly) self balancing. In a gestalt campaign they overlap because gestalt characters don't have the same saftey measures. HOWEVER! Even in a normal campaign, if a Ninth level character has say three levels each of rogue, ninja and scout each of those abilities go off at under different circumstances! Sneak attack won't work if the opponent isn't flanked or isn't denied its dex bonus to AC. Sudden Strike only works if the opponent is denied dex to AC. Skirmish only goes off when the character moves. If you can get all three circumstances to happen at once, then yeah, you can have 6d6. that is only one more die than normal and you have paid for it by either slowing down your BAB and saves slighly or suffering a hit in XP earnings.

Now if you didn't follow these guidlines, which are every bit as unofficial as the gestalt rules themselves and yet still come from the same company, you could blend ninja and rogue, sneak up on some poor defenseless NPC and gain the precision based damage of a 20th level sneak attack at tenth level! That goes above and beyond the mere blending of two sets of abilities and goes into the hideous realms of insane twinkery.

Gods damned forums. Every time I think I am out they PULL ME BACK IN! After all of this I hope and pray the damn customer support is consistant.

That rogue/warlock thing though... those abilities may still stack, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea. That is twinkery of the highest order. and it soils my very soul that I brought it up. Now I have to go wash my hands of it all again.

Once again I am up way WAY past my time to be awake. For the last time, GOOD NIGHT!

 

[Drowbane]

(snip)Once again I am up way WAY past my time to be awake. For the last time, GOOD NIGHT!

Hmm, food for thought. Many thanks. G'night sir!

Actually, if they stack, that's strong evidence, that you would only get one and not both in a Gestalt situation, since they are then considered to be pretty much the same thing.

But that is something, that is not perfectly clear in the Gestalt rules for sure, and left open to the interpretation of the reader, how it will work precisely in any given game.

Bye
Thanee

Which is of course where Rule Zero comes into play. In the SC Gestalt campaign I'm currently in the group has agreed that such a character would indeed have the Uber-Stab (of Legend?)... but so far nobody has gone that route. Each of us seem to prefer taking two totally different class types for our Gestalts (Rogue | Psion, Fighter | Psion, and Cleric | PsyWarrior)

So Thanee (or anybody else who wishes to chime in), what is your take on LA with Gestalt? My current group is going with the idea that LA takes up one side of the gestalt rather than applying to the whole level. Example: Thri Kreen (2 HD, LA +1) Barbarian 3 | Rogue 6. Thoughts?

 

[Vurt]

So Thanee (or anybody else who wishes to chime in), what is your take on LA with Gestalt? My current group is going with the idea that LA takes up one side of the gestalt rather than applying to the whole level. Example: Thri Kreen (2 HD, LA +1) Barbarian 3 | Rogue 6. Thoughts?

What I've done in the past in various gestalt games is have the LA take up both sides of the class progression, but also allow the optional LA buy-down rules, on p.18 of Unearthed Arcana.

I've found the way you've proposed gets really wacky when players bring in new characters at higher levels, with (ye randome hella LA +8 race) | class 9.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Thanee]

Definitely both sides.

Otherwise you get the stacking issues, where you basically add one side on top of the other, which is surely not the intent of Gestalt.

Bye
Thanee

 

[szilard]

Another option for LA is to allow the LA up one side and an NPC class up the other. I think this would probably work fairly well, but I haven't tried it.

-Stuart

 

[Stone Dog]

I've always made the choice that since you can't take wiz/wiz for a level you can't take race/race either. racial levels aren't that much more complicated than a very narrow class so when I had an Ogre Mage/Sorcerer gestalt villain and a thrikreen/psion/ranger combo PC it worked out very well. Racial ECL/Class Lvl is the way I went. It seemed balanced enough in play.

 

[Jack Simth]

This is a nice House Rule. However, thats all it is.

Gestalt stats that at each level you get the best of both classes. If your BA, Fort, Ref, or Will goes up on one side of your gestalt on any given level... it improves for that level. Yes, this can be powergamed. No, it shouldn't matter, you are already allowing gestalt.

Ah, but it can be _rediculously_ powergamed;

Consider a Wiz|Sor 20 vs. a Fighter|Sor 1 / Wiz 19|Sor2-20; At each level, one of the sides increases BAB by 1; at each level, one of the sides increases Will. At levels 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19 the poor reflex save goes up - so, despite having a poor reflex save, he's got a +12 reflex at 20th, tied with the Monk|Rogue 20. For real deep cheese, take a look at a Fighter 1|Favored Soul 1 / Monk 19 | Favored Soul 2-20; At every level, one side or the other gets an increase in BAB. At every level, one side or the other gets an increase in each save. At 20th.... well.... good luck failing a save with your +22 or so modifiers.....

 

[Stone Dog]

Never has a sig been so very very poignant.