Need help with Gestalt character

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

multi-classing gestalt characters has always proven to be a nightmare for me, so after reading this discussion, I have an idea on how to improve the way gestalt stats are figured.

Let's see if I can explain it while brainstorming it:

Each gestalt character has an "A" class and a "B" class. Let's consider Jack Smith's character proposed above:
Class A:
Fighter 1/Wizard 19
BAB = 10, F 6, R 6, W 11
Class B:
Sorcerer 20
BAB = 10, F 6, R 6, W 12
Taking the better of the two for each quality, we get BAB 10 (Either), F 6, R 6 (Either), and W 12 (B). We also get a fighter bonus feat and heavy armor proficiency and martial weapons, a bunch of wizard bonus feats, the familiar of a 20th level sorcerer, and a whole snotload of spells, both prepared and spontaneous.

This is clearly a whole lot more powerful than a typical (non-gestalt) PC, but it's not a tarrasque killer that makes a fellow party member feel like a wimp for having gone straight Rogue/Cleric Gestalt.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Delak's character from post #1 would work like this
Class A:
Monk 3/Cleric 4
BAB 5, F 7, R 4, W 7
Class B:
Sorcerer 7
BAB 3, F 2, R 2, W 5
Final character:
BAB 5, F 7, R 4, W 7
just like a monk/cleric multiclass, but with a familiar and spells.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, figuring each side independantly and simply taking the best total is a quick and easy method to achieve a good result. It's not entirely the same as when the levels are done independantly, but as long as it's the same for everyone, that shouldn't really matter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Thanee,

How is it different?

I'm not sniping. I really don't get it. I've been here long enough to learn to trust your math and methods, and I am one who would rather put in the extra effort to get the right answer. I really don't understand the intricacies of the method you sketch out in post #2.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Hmmm. This should be fun.

Gestalt by Thanee's method (I think I've got it right):

(g = good, a = average, p = poor)

             BAB  FORT REFL WILL
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Fighter|Sorc  g    g    p    g
Fighter|Sorc  g    g    p    g
Fighter|Sorc  g    g    p    g
Fighter|Sorc  g    g    p    g

That means that:
BAB =  +6 (3 levels of average and 4 levels of good)
FORT = +5 (7 levels of good)
REFL = +4 (3 levels of good and 4 levels of poor)
WILL = +5 (7 levels of good)

Gestault by Arbiter of Wyrms' method:

Monk 3/Fighter 4 would have: BAB = +6, FORT = +7, REFL = +4, WILL = +4
Sorcerer 7 would have        BAB = +3, FORT = +2, REFL = +2, WILL = +5

Giving an end result of
BAB =  +6
FORT = +7
REFL = +4
WILL = +5

The reason for the difference is that when you add up the progression you eliminate the +2 gained at the first level of every “good” save. That is the primary difference if I am understanding correctly. However, I am not guaranteeing I have done it right. I’ll let others beat at my piñata!

EDIT: I admit I accidentally did Monk&Fighter instead of Monk&Cleric. My fault. But I think you can see the difference in my example, too.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Delak's character from post #1 would work like this
Class A:
Monk 3/Cleric 4
BAB 5, F 7, R 4, W 7
Class B:
Sorcerer 7
BAB 3, F 2, R 2, W 5
Final character:
BAB 5, F 7, R 4, W 7
just like a monk/cleric multiclass, but with a familiar and spells.

Since I screwed up the Monk&Cleric by using Monk&Fighter, let me try that one by Thanee's method, too:

             BAB  FORT REFL WILL
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Monk|Sorc     a    g    g    g
Cleric|Sorc   a    g    p    g
Cleric|Sorc   a    g    p    g
Cleric|Sorc   a    g    p    g
Cleric|Sorc   a    g    p    g

That means that:
BAB =  +5 (7 levels of average)
FORT = +5 (7 levels of good)
REFL = +4 (3 levels of good and 4 levels of poor)
WILL = +5 (7 levels of good)

Notice in this case the difference in both the FORT and WILL saves...

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

So, the whole difference is in the elimination of the initial front-loading of the saves for every class? I kind of like that front-loading. I feel like it somewhat ameliorates the inherent disadvantages of multiclassing.

Is there an opportunity to abuse the method I use? Something that wouldn't come up if I switched methods of calculation (other than the above front-loading issue)?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

So, the whole difference is in the elimination of the initial front-loading of the saves for every class? I kind of like that front-loading. I feel like it somewhat ameliorates the inherent disadvantages of multiclassing.

With a normal character, I agree with liking the front loading - especially in the case of multiclassing. It does help alleviate some of the drawbacks. But in the case of a Gestalt character there are already plenty of good things coming at them, too.

Again, Gestalt is by definition a house rule since it comes from Unearthed Arcana. So as long as you apply the same system to all the characters it should be reasonably fair. I mean, the characters are already receiving a significant hand up. I doubt an occasional +2 matters. Just keep in mind, though, that the more classes a character takes the worse that difference becomes.

 

[Drowbane]

I've always made the choice that since you can't take wiz/wiz for a level you can't take race/race either. racial levels aren't that much more complicated than a very narrow class so when I had an Ogre Mage/Sorcerer gestalt villain and a thrikreen/psion/ranger combo PC it worked out very well. Racial ECL/Class Lvl is the way I went. It seemed balanced enough in play.

Thats the way my group plays it also. It holds balance as long as you don't use any LA larger than 3 or 4. LA is always a bit wacky (Vampire Fi 3 = an 11th level Fighter? Are you nuts? How about an 11th lvl Cleric? pfft).

So to reiterate; If a Half Dragon Fi 2 equals a Fighter 5... then should the Gestalt version be a Half Dragon Fi 2 | Sorc 2 (= a 5th lvl Gestalt!) or a Half Dragon Fi 2 | Sorc 5. The upside to doing it this way is that you gain HD with your LA... but you're still losing out on half of your Gestalt Classes.

 

[Vymair]

Seems like the simplest thing to do would be to disallow multiclassing gestalt characters. For sanity's sake.