-2 to all defenses till end of next turn at a +2 to hit that also happens to give free healing to the next ally to hit them is a fairly large bonus... With a party of 5, how much dps adjustment does that kinda buff give to everyone else? What kinda damage output related to the rest of the party would I have to do to make that not a really good idea?
Need help with math justification.
- Thread starter Akaiku
- Start date
renau1g
First Post
Really? I can't imagine that party battling any difficult encounters and surviving. My group was 5 without a leader and we usually had 1 pc drop per fight. Grabbing a cleric as a 6th PC has greatly increased our survivability.
Tony Vargas
Legend
I'm not saying Astral Seal isn't a great power, it is. The +2 to hit vs REF is about equivalent to an attack vs WILL. -2 all defenses is comparable to a +2 unnamed bonus to hit. Lance of Faith, for example, gives a +2 power bonus to hit (and only to one ally), but also does radiant damage, itself (which is pretty spiffy, since so many undead are vulnerable to it).
Like I said, there's no good quantitative way to compare a debuff with some possible healing to a buff with some damage. The two are certainly pretty similar in rough magnitude, though. A -2 debuff vs a +2 buff, 1d8+WIS+enhc damage (plus possible crit and vulnerability damage) vs possible 2+CHA+WIS /non-surge/ healing.
Personally, I agree that Astral Seal is problematic. At-will non-surge healing is potentially game-changing. OTOH, if you liked the game just fine before it came out, you can always ignore it and go on playing just as you were. As long as you're the only Cleric, no one should notice the difference.
Like I said, there's no good quantitative way to compare a debuff with some possible healing to a buff with some damage. The two are certainly pretty similar in rough magnitude, though. A -2 debuff vs a +2 buff, 1d8+WIS+enhc damage (plus possible crit and vulnerability damage) vs possible 2+CHA+WIS /non-surge/ healing.
Personally, I agree that Astral Seal is problematic. At-will non-surge healing is potentially game-changing. OTOH, if you liked the game just fine before it came out, you can always ignore it and go on playing just as you were. As long as you're the only Cleric, no one should notice the difference.
Last edited:
IMHO this is harsh. Too harsh.
And whats wrong and irresponsable in not having an 08? So all fighters/paladins in your games are supposed to have int 08? All clerics with 08 dex? Well I respectfully disagree here.
And I agree with Draco, but I would like to add: if you wants the Shielding Build (actually so good to be almost overpowered one IMHO), damage is the very last thing you have to worry about.
If I got this right the shielding cleric has usually low strenght, and tends to be much more healer/buffer/disabler than any other cleric build (Pacifism come to my mind).
Flipguarder
First Post
Yeah it's probably too harsh. But as a player some things just really irk me.
For instance, the artificer in the group I DM took clockwork engineer and only has one summonable thing. And the action point feature to allow for 2 minor actions to command the summon is useless because it doesn't have anything it can do on a minor action. To top that all off, I asked him wanted to do on his turn he said "I'm going to use Relentless harrier... Ok hold on, whats this do now?"
Some people seem to be under the impression that they are sequestered to certain role-playing type when they organize their stat allotment. It's just unnecessary self-gimping.
For instance, the artificer in the group I DM took clockwork engineer and only has one summonable thing. And the action point feature to allow for 2 minor actions to command the summon is useless because it doesn't have anything it can do on a minor action. To top that all off, I asked him wanted to do on his turn he said "I'm going to use Relentless harrier... Ok hold on, whats this do now?"
Some people seem to be under the impression that they are sequestered to certain role-playing type when they organize their stat allotment. It's just unnecessary self-gimping.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
The thing is, 4e really is a game of inches. Even though no one thing is wrong with a specific subpar character build the result can still be pretty ineffective sometimes. Not that the OP's character sounds like its ineffective, but you can't focus on ONE specific piece of advice in most cases which will just "fix" a character. It usually has to be a number of things taken together which are each fairly trivial by themselves.
In this case he has a couple of stats that could be dumped harder which is going to give him another point in a more useful stat. That's one little thing. He might also drop a point of DEX (I think) and still make his target prereqs. Little adjustments that may add up a bit, though they aren't going to suddenly turn him into a damage machine. The same goes for his weapon choice and feat selections. If he takes proficiency in a superior +3 bonus weapon, that will add a bit. Throw in a good damaging at-will (Righteous Brand is the only sane choice) and he can go from a +6 to-hit to a +8 to-hit which is a straight up 20% DPR increase right there, and with doing say 1d10 vs d8 damage all of a sudden it means he can dish out a good bit more hurt. He's still not going to be a DPR king, just he'll do enough to make it probably worth using RB instead of Astral Seal constantly.
I do know what you mean though about the pacifist powers being almost too good to turn down. One of the problems is its pretty much always better to debuff the enemy's defenses vs buffing one of your own guys to-hit. Someone said something about equality, but there are ALWAYS ways to gang up on those sorts of debuffs with a smart party. If I give player X a +2 to-hit on his next swing, that's it, it has one use. If I can put a -2 on the enemy's AC for any duration at all other players can use readied actions etc to pile onto it.
In any case, the character seems to be fairly effective. Honestly if it was me I'd play to your strengths and not worry about damage too much.
In this case he has a couple of stats that could be dumped harder which is going to give him another point in a more useful stat. That's one little thing. He might also drop a point of DEX (I think) and still make his target prereqs. Little adjustments that may add up a bit, though they aren't going to suddenly turn him into a damage machine. The same goes for his weapon choice and feat selections. If he takes proficiency in a superior +3 bonus weapon, that will add a bit. Throw in a good damaging at-will (Righteous Brand is the only sane choice) and he can go from a +6 to-hit to a +8 to-hit which is a straight up 20% DPR increase right there, and with doing say 1d10 vs d8 damage all of a sudden it means he can dish out a good bit more hurt. He's still not going to be a DPR king, just he'll do enough to make it probably worth using RB instead of Astral Seal constantly.
I do know what you mean though about the pacifist powers being almost too good to turn down. One of the problems is its pretty much always better to debuff the enemy's defenses vs buffing one of your own guys to-hit. Someone said something about equality, but there are ALWAYS ways to gang up on those sorts of debuffs with a smart party. If I give player X a +2 to-hit on his next swing, that's it, it has one use. If I can put a -2 on the enemy's AC for any duration at all other players can use readied actions etc to pile onto it.
In any case, the character seems to be fairly effective. Honestly if it was me I'd play to your strengths and not worry about damage too much.
DracoSuave
First Post
While I agree with you on that level, the fact is, he's playing to have fun, and his character should first be built to the player's needs before the player should be required to play it to its strengths.
Cleric can do what he wants without being ineffective, why -not- build cleric to do what he wants? This cleric is -not- effective at doing the most important job of a cleric: being fun for the player to play.
If the character does fail at that, nothing else matters.
Period.
The cleric in our party who selected the following powers begs to differ:
Righteous Brand
Recovery Strike
Healer's Mercy
War Priest's Strike
Life Transference
Moment of Glory
Hammer of the Gods
Weapon of the Gods
Stream of Life
Strike of Judgement
To provide a nice mix of damage and healing. That's not a particularly healing focused selection, and most of those powers inflict damage, but the total healing output is immense. To put it into context, our party recently fought 8 consecutive encounters without an extended rest. I don't think any more healing is required.
Similar Threads
