Need some advice on spells from the miniatures handbook

[Abraxas]

I have a player who is looking at spells from the miniatures handbook. I was wondering if others had used them in their games and how they worked out.

The spells he is interested are (and a very brief description for those that don't have the book)
Baleful Transposition (Lvl2) - swaps two targets positions - will save negates.
Bigby's Slapping Hand (Lvl2) - Distracts target provoking AoOs from threatening Characters - No Save, but a Concentration Check avoids.
Curse of Impending Blades (Lvl2) - penalty of -2 to targets AC, No Save.
Snake's Swiftness (Lvl2) - Target gets to make an immediate attack (even when not its initiative).
Snakes Swiftness, Legion's (Lvl3) - Affects more than one creature as the 2nd level Snake's Swiftness

Looking them over, they just seem wrong for their level.
Comments/Opinions?

 

[Liolel]

I'll be very wary of most of them. I'd ban snakes swiftness outright, it just operates outside of normal D&D rules, and I can't think of any core rule that allows you to act outside your iniative. Bigbys Slapping Hand, I'll ban as well, as concentration is a skill that most fighting types don't pick up as its usually a spellcaster skill and not even a class skills for classes like fighter.

That leaves Baleful Transposition and Curse of Impending Blades, the former as long as it has a short range doesn't seem to bad. But beware of against one foe the wizard standing in the middle of the party and then using the spell against the enemy whos at a range, causing the enemy to be surronded and the wizard safe. The Curse of Impending Blades doesn't seem to be to bad as long as its a named penelty (so no stacking) and it isn't permenant.

Edit: Even those that would allow probally could use a level or two boost, just to be safe.

 

[drnuncheon]

I agree - a lot of them seem very powerful for their level. Teleporting two other people without moving yourself is only half the level of dimension door? I don't think so.

J

 

[VirgilCaine]

I wouldn't go to the work of examining and balancing spells from the MiniHB. You could probably find a lot of fan-made spells for free that were better balanced than those.

 

[Abraxas]

Those were my immediate thoughts on Snake's Swiftness and Bigby's SH.

Posted by Liolel
The Curse of Impending Blades doesn't seem to be to bad as long as its a named penelty (so no stacking) and it isn't permenant.

It is un-named, lasts 1 min/level. According to the "Rules of the Game" article on the WoTC web site all penalties are un-named and don't stack with themselves. Basically its a sorta stripped down version of the first level "Doom" spell - with a bump for no save. Actually that's really the only problem I have with it - No save - I just don't like those types of effects (as a player or DM).

As for Baleful Transposition - if it was 3rd level I probably wouldn't have batted an eye at it. But 2nd - that seems 1 level too low.

 

[Liolel]

One good rule for allowing any new material, is that you as the dm won't go looking for loopholes and abuses of the rules, but if the players start to do that then all gloves are off. I've mainly seen this rule used for certain spells, like if you don't Buff, scry and teleport on the villians, they won't do this on you, or if you don't use mords disjunction, the enemies won't either. From what I've heard it works pretty well, because players do not want their own rules bending to come back and bite them.

 

[Silveras]

I think it is great to see a set of options that play with the fringes of the combat rules. I own a copy of the book, and find it interesting. Granted, I don't play the minis game and so the latter half of the book is less-than-useful to me. However, the first half of the book has some good stuff in it (mixed in with the not-so-good). Provoking AoOs is a neat effect for a spell. A tactic of questionable usefulness, generally, but sometimes useful.

One of the things that the book's contents is good for is forcing people -- players and DMs -- to re-evaluate their assumptions. The availability of new tools may mean that old tactics are not so certain of being effective anymore.

I'll be very wary of most of them. I'd ban snakes swiftness outright, it just operates outside of normal D&D rules, and I can't think of any core rule that allows you to act outside your iniative. Bigbys Slapping Hand, I'll ban as well, as concentration is a skill that most fighting types don't pick up as its usually a spellcaster skill and not even a class skills for classes like fighter.

With regard to Core rules: The Miniatures Handbook is not a core book. Judging a book of optional rules about how well it adheres to the standard rules is kind of silly.

Snake's Swiftness is a spell that parallels the ability of the Marshal class (also in the Miniatures HB, but available for downloade from the Wizards webs site as a preview) to grant an extra Move Action to "any and all allies within 30 feet". They act immediately, without affecting their initiative order. Snake's Swiftness grants an extra melee or ranged attack (only). The extra attacks specifically do not stack -- you can't benefit from the spell twice in one round, nor can you benefit if you've already used an extra attack from Haste.

Being honest, I can't see many Wizards preparing Bigby's Slapping Hand. There are so many other 2nd level spells that are more useful, except in very specific circumstances. I see it as being of more use to Sorcerers ... it is the kind of spell you would not prepare often, but if it is something you can pull out when the unexpected opportunity arises, it could be pure gold. Sorcerers get so few spell choices that selecting this one is almost a penalty in and of itself, as it is unlikely to come up often.

That leaves Baleful Transposition and Curse of Impending Blades, the former as long as it has a short range doesn't seem to bad. But beware of against one foe the wizard standing in the middle of the party and then using the spell against the enemy whos at a range, causing the enemy to be surronded and the wizard safe. The Curse of Impending Blades doesn't seem to be to bad as long as its a named penelty (so no stacking) and it isn't permenant.

Baleful Transposition is indeed Close range. Again, though, while it is something that could be useful on occasion, I don't see it as being all that compelling to prepare. It seems to me that the most frequent use is likely to be "I'm way too far out in front and need to get back to the party," an escape spell like Expeditious Retreat. I would think that when fighting a lone enemy, either it is the BBEG and you don't want it in the middle of the party, or it is a minion that is outnumbered and losing anyway.

The Curse of Impending Blades is, speaking as a DM, a good alternative to the Core rules' Bestow Curse. The CoIB is a -2 penalty to AC for 1 min/level. BC is -6 to one stat, or -4 to attacks/saves, or 50/50 do nothing this round, and is permanent until removed. True, there is a save for BC. I don't see a problem with CoIB.

Edit: Even those that would allow probally could use a level or two boost, just to be safe.

I am among the most staunch advocates of the DM's need to balance things for his/her campaign. However, before raising any spell levels, I'd need to read the whole spell description and see what else is in use in the campaign. In a world where the Marshal class does not exist, Snake's Swiftness may well be too good for a 2nd level spell; however, if the Marshal class is around, that may change things.

 

[Elephant]

Baleful Transposition (Lvl2) - I would allow this as sort of a modified Dimension Door, but it becomes a level 4 spell.
Bigby's Slapping Hand (Lvl2) - Allow, but a Reflex save or a Discipline check can also negate the effect.
Curse of Impending Blades (Lvl2) - This is fine. It's sort of a reversed Barkskin. You might want to allow a Will save to negate or halve the effect, though.
Snake's Swiftness (Lvl2) - I'd hesitate to allow this. Haste doesn't come until level 3, and it doesn't have as good an effect as this. If you do allow it, bump it up to at least 5th level.
Snakes Swiftness, Legion's (Lvl3) - See Snake's Swiftness. 7th level or higher.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Snake's Swiftness (Lvl2) - I'd hesitate to allow this. Haste doesn't come until level 3, and it doesn't have as good an effect as this. If you do allow it, bump it up to at least 5th level.

Huh? Haste gives an extra attack for every full attack action, +1 to AC, attacks, and Reflex saves, and increases speed by 30 feet - and works on one creature per level. How is that less powerful than one single attack from one creature?

 

[Silveras]

Baleful Transposition (Lvl2) - I would allow this as sort of a modified Dimension Door, but it becomes a level 4 spell.

Uhm... Dim Door is a lower-grade teleport with 400+ ft range, and which can affect several allied creatures. You can go *anywhere* within the spell range.

Baleful Transposition only allows you to cause 2 creatures to trade places. In other words, you can only send creature A to where creature B already is. Plus, the two creatures must be on the same piece of land (or whatever) -- no transposing across a chasm. Plus, it is only close Range. Plus, if either creature makes its save, the spell fails.

Is that 2 levels weaker ? Looks like it to me.

Bigby's Slapping Hand (Lvl2) - Allow, but a Reflex save or a Discipline check can also negate the effect.

Bigby's slapping hand allows a Con check to negate the effect (is that what you meant by a Discipline check ?).

Curse of Impending Blades (Lvl2) - This is fine. It's sort of a reversed Barkskin. You might want to allow a Will save to negate or halve the effect, though.

Saving for half-effects is generally for area-effect damage spells. This spell lasts 1 fight, basically. Compare with Doom, a 1st level spell that imposes a -2 on attacks, saves, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 min/level, but allows a save.

A 1-level-higher spell that has a more limited effect but does not allow a save seems fine to me.

Snake's Swiftness (Lvl2) - I'd hesitate to allow this. Haste doesn't come until level 3, and it doesn't have as good an effect as this. If you do allow it, bump it up to at least 5th level.

What book are you reading ? Haste gives you 1 additional attack at your highest value on a full attack, +1 to attack, +1 AC, +1 to Reflex saves, increases your movement, AND affects multiple creatures (1/level). In other words, Haste is Snake's Swiftness with extra benefits, and lasts several rounds. Snake's Swiftness is instantaneous, but you get the extra attack even if you have moved (and could not use a full attack).

Snakes Swiftness, Legion's (Lvl3) - See Snake's Swiftness. 7th level or higher.

See my comments re: Haste. Snake's Swiftness, Legion's still doesn't do as much as Haste for the most part.