Need Some Ideas On Dealing With Death.

[Treebore]

Technically its the players who earn the XP's, not the character sheet. Its the player who puts in all the time, decides all the actions, etc... So its the player who really "earns" the XP's, not the character sheet.

So when the character sheet dies why should the player lose XP's? Because the rules say so? So what? Rules are to be used when they make sense to you.

Well, if you don't like players playing characters that fall behind due to XP loss from death, then guess what? Time for that rule to be labeled "stupid" and cast aside.

Plus why are people so shallow that they will automatically treat dying like a video game? I've have met a few players like that. A few. Most players get that death is failure. Most players get that they died.

Heck, I am playing, not running, a Ravenloft game. This past Tuesday two of us died from a Cloudkill spell. My fellow players were definitely very bothered by their PC death. This is with the DM doing things like I do. IE they died a "good death" so when we used 2 of our 5 Raise Dead scrolls on them they did not lose CON or anything else.

The players still acted upset, angry, and out for revenge for the rest of the session.

So this constant insistence that players must be punished above and beyond their PC's death continues to baffle me. Kill your players PC. Watch them. See how their faces look, what their attitude is like, how they play the PC after that. I bet most of your players are bothered plenty by their PC death without rubbing additional salt and lemon juice into their wounds.

Now for the few who aren't bothered, add the insult to injury. Until they "get it" too.

Otherwise make the assumption that your players are smart enough and mature enough to get the fact that their PC died without having to have additional mechanics to rub salt in their wounds to prove it to them.

 

[azrael489]

It seems to me that your big mistake is that you're getting way, WAY, WAY ahead of yourself. Your artifact idea could work and could be cool, but I'm really not sure why you're so eager to set a system in place.

PC deaths don't occur often (in most campaigns, anyway) and for that reason the best advice I think I can give you is not to worry about being prepared for the instant a party member buys the farm. Deal with it THEN. This allows you to adapt to the situation and act appropriately and as needed.

I find dealing with PC deaths on a case-by-case basis allows the best solution to be used each time, and that figuring that out each time it happens is by NO means a big deal. If the PC died heroically and the player's OK with rolling up a new character, do that. If a powerful NPC owes the party a favor, they can call it in to get their friend resurrected. You can add a Rod of Resurrection with a couple charges or a Scroll of Raise Dead to the treasure hoard of the despicable villain responsible for the terrible tragedy, or maybe the party can afford a Raise Dead, or whatever's appropriate. You came up with the artifact without too much trouble, and though it might be unpolished it's interesting and has promise. You should have no trouble figuring out how to handle the dead PC well before the rest of the party does (and you can always take 5 for bathroom breaks, snack-fetching, and to talk things over with the player if you need to).

The other big advantage with crossing that bridge when you come to it is that you avoid the huge problem with your request: you can't make death both meaningful and never-permanent. It's just not possible. Death's permanence is what makes it meaningful. You can penalize the party for a death financially through cost of raising, experiencially through XP loss, etc., but then by definition it's not death, and it doesn't carry the weight that permanent PC loss does. It just doesn't work.

Dealing with things case-by-case, though, makes it pretty clear to your players that there's no reason their next death will be "fixed". After all, if they didn't have that favor to call in/hadn't found that magic item/weren't sent on this mission by a cleric with Raise Dead, they'd be burying their friend.

The last point I'll make along this line is that, as much as I respect your goal of never forcing a player to roll a new character (and I mostly run things that way as well), sometimes they really should die. If a character does something exceptionally stupid, for example, rather than being the victim of unlucky dice or the like, well... you kind of have to let them die or you devalue smart decisions. By all means keep your options open so you can toss them a line if they die well in the line of duty, but you just as much need to be able to say "Ouch dude, tough break. Well at least now the rest of the party knows it's not cinnamon that keeps vampires away, right? Here's 4d6..."

If you're really married to working something out now though, and to PCs being impossible to truly kill (though again, IMO this is one of the worst things a DM can let a player know) I'd suggest keeping the following in mind:

• Death should be a big deal - err on the side of too harsh soas not to diminish your players' desire to protect their characters
• Carefully consider consequences - For example, as written, your artifact changes the party dynamic/forces them together, it drives the storyline, it could get them lynched if someone figures out they're "behind" the "plague of dessication", etc. Those could all be great, fun ideas, just make sure you want them before you're stuck with them
• Charges are your friend - I mentioned a Rod of Resurrection with 2-3 charges above. That's 2-3 "free deaths", but after that dead's dead. The players are likely to protect those charges as if they were each other's lives. Just make sure they know they've only got a few (whether or not you tell them the exact number)
• Beware the "death spiral" - not just with stats, but in things like your artifact's civilian deaths; I like the idea, but if the dead grow exponentially the PCs might decide the most "heroic" thing for them to do is retire somewhere nice and safe...

 

[Lanefan]

First off, to azrael489: good points in the post after the one I'm quoting here.

Then, to a tangential issue that may deserve having a thread-fork stuck in it:

Technically its the players who earn the XP's, not the character sheet. Its the player who puts in all the time, decides all the actions, etc... So its the player who really "earns" the XP's, not the character sheet.

Danger, Will Robinson. ExPs are a character reward in the reality of the game, earned for what the character does within the game world. Sure, there's a player steering that character around, but it's the character's actions that produce (or not) such ExP as it gets. Start looking at them as a player reward and you're verging into ExP-for-whoever-buys-the-pizza territory; a dangerous land from which no game returns.

Well, if you don't like players playing characters that fall behind due to XP loss from death, then guess what? Time for that rule to be labeled "stupid" and cast aside.

Fine, but that still won't make 'em equal. Some characters over the long run are going to get involved in more encounters than others, and thus earn more ExP - one hopes. Sometimes a character might retire (earning few if any ExP during that time) and then reappear. And a couple of determined Vampires can ruin your whole day. Conversely, someone might jump ahead a level for some reason; a Deck of Many Things being but one.

Plus why are people so shallow that they will automatically treat dying like a video game? I've have met a few players like that. A few. Most players get that death is failure. Most players get that they died.

You've run with different players than I, then. 'Round here, most players see death as simply one more part of the game.

Lane-"five times dead"-fan

 

[firesnakearies]

This also is not realistic; some characters simply do more (and thus deserve more ExP) than others. Trying to keep them all the same level all the time might be just asking for a headache.

In the 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, James Wyatt writes (and I agree with him):

"The game works better in a lot of ways if you just assume that the characters all gain experience and advance levels at the same rate, even if their players miss a session. You don’t have to worry about players lagging behind the others, and players who miss a session don’t feel like they’re less effective. D&D is a cooperative game, and it’s more fun when all the players are on a level playing field, able to make equal contributions to the group’s success. All the players can share in the excitement of gaining a level at the same time. And it makes tracking XP much easier."



$

 

[Frost]

For what it's worth, I use Andy Collins' suggestion for my campaign:

The High Cost of Dying

 

[Treebore]

First off, to azrael489: good points in the post after the one I'm quoting here.

Then, to a tangential issue that may deserve having a thread-fork stuck in it:
Danger, Will Robinson. ExPs are a character reward in the reality of the game, earned for what the character does within the game world. Sure, there's a player steering that character around, but it's the character's actions that produce (or not) such ExP as it gets. Start looking at them as a player reward and you're verging into ExP-for-whoever-buys-the-pizza territory; a dangerous land from which no game returns.
Fine, but that still won't make 'em equal. Some characters over the long run are going to get involved in more encounters than others, and thus earn more ExP - one hopes. Sometimes a character might retire (earning few if any ExP during that time) and then reappear. And a couple of determined Vampires can ruin your whole day. Conversely, someone might jump ahead a level for some reason; a Deck of Many Things being but one.

You've run with different players than I, then. 'Round here, most players see death as simply one more part of the game.

Lane-"five times dead"-fan

I agree the character is the one going around in the imaginary world actually doing the actions, etc... but that character wouldn't even be there if someone wasn't playing it. So who should get the XP's? The imaginary non existent PC? Or the player who is expending real time life playing it? I simply say it should be the player, who is spending actual life time playing the PC, that should get the reward, not the fake character. IE its the real life human being who is truly making everything happen, not that PC. So I look at it as rewarding the player, not the piece of paper.

Then again, when I have players who buy pizza, and share with the group, I do give XP's. They are increasing the enjoyment of the game experience. No different than giving XP's for telling a good joke, or doing something in character that makes the game more memorable. They increased the enjoyment of the experience, so get a bonus XP award.

My players always show up. Even if they don't, my current players have all been considerate and thoughtful enough to call, or e-mail, letting us know they have a surgery early the next day, have to get stage props built for the play their wife is running this coming weekend, etc... and one of the other players is happy to play their PC for them, and they still get the standard XP's the rest of the party gets.

I guess it works because my players don't look at it as a competition. We are all there to have fun. Not out do each other. Plus its a benefit to themselves if the other players stay the same level, or close to their level, when fighting the encounters. So they get the XP's by being there, or allowing their PC to be played. The only way they don't get XP's is if they don't show, don't call. I do punish rudeness.

My players also see death as part of the game. They also accept it as something they should avoid whenever possible. They don't need me adding arbitrary punishments to make them realize this. So I don't.

However, if, and when, I have players who don't avoid death whenever possible, I will arbitrarily punish them, since they insist on treating PC death arbitrarily. Simple. Fair. Balanced.