Nerfing?

Tzarevitch said:


Drat. You beat me to the flaw in the "It is balanced because the NPCs can do it too," argument.

Actually, that wasn't really the intent behind my original formulation, and not a position I'd care to argue for. The original intent is closer to the "Cold War" (P)SH mentioned, but also looking forward a bit, not just reactive.

"If I let [PC|NPC] use X tactic against the [NPC|PC] how bad would it be?"

In the case of the hypothetical 1st level meteor-swarm, since neither my players nor me enjoy TPKs I wouldn't allow it. For a similar reason, if the PCs ended up in combat with an archmage at 1st level (despite my best efforts otherwise), I probably wouldn't cast Meteor Swarm the first round (third round, maybe). Instead, the archmage would likely exit combat and sic minions on them.

Oh, and I forgot Rule #4 -
Players are Murphy's Law incarnate.
 

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I believed the wording from my original post was a bit poor.

I just want to clarify that my DM has game balance and fairness behind many of his rulings.

The use of the word "nerf" may not have been the most appropriate word to use.

It is not so much, "nerfing" that is invloved, but making sure that something is not too powerful for our campaign.
 

reapersaurus said:
I don't agree that most DM's have the "balance" or "fairness" of the rules in mind when they willfully nerf rules to deny a player something he has planned out.

Of primary concern to him (most likely) is that he will have less power to control every little aspect of his precious little world, and we all know that that's the primary motivation of most DM's : control and power over the scene(s) and players.
I know some DMs/GMs who have a problem with having less control - but also some who don't:

1) The railroad boss: You can kill his NPCs, run away, or do whatever else you like. It won't do you any good, though, 'cause in the end, there always is only one direction you can go - and often, you automatically do so regardless of your wishes (e.g., portals that suck you where you have to go next).

DMing example: He had his computer randomly generate a dungeon (and didn't even clean up any illogical or senseless things that occured because of this) to use as the adventure. We were railroaded into the thing ("The road beneath you crumbles. You are now in a dungeon." - only that he used a few more words to describe that), through which he railroaded us to a portal to some other plane.

He's one of the finest players I've ever seen, though - so it's for the best of everyone concerned if he's a player rather than a GM. :p

2) New twink on the block: Has been playing for only a year or two now and hasn't run, to my knowledge, even one gaming session that didn't involve the PCs' being railroaded by uber-powerful super-NPCs. If a PC is very tough, every last one of the 20-odd faceless bodyguards of the "employer" (read: random guy the PCs never met so far who nonetheless proceeds to command them to go run some errand for him) is tougher still. And you don't want to know how powerful his "named" NPCs are. :eek:
All you can do is out-twink him - which is, despite his NPCs' power, very often ridiculously easy, given his relatively limited role-playing experience (both in time playing and in "tricks" learned). Oh, but even if you out-twink him, don't destroy his plot or he'll get angry and leave. :p

GMing example: The game was Vampire. We were Camarilla characters (2 Brujah, 1 Tremere (?), 1 Malkavian) and for some reason or other, found ourselves in one small American city or other.
The Prince summoned us to him and told us to go to Cairo immediately to find out why some vampires there had vanished. (Note: We didn't work for the guy - or even know each other. Or him, for that matter. But he still insisted that we fly to Egypt.) He had about 20 seven-foot-tall Brujah bodyguards with breastplates and two-handed swords (yes, we were playing in the 20th century - why'd you ask...? ;)). Oh, and their swords had been magically enhanced by the local Tremere, BTW.
So anyway - we fly to Cairo. We met the local Prince and also his powerful Tremere advisor - and his 20-odd, 7-foot-tall Brujah bodyguards in medieval armor, carrying enchanted two-handed swords. :rolleyes:
(Note: One of the PC Brujah had the "Huge Size" merit and thus, was almost 7-foot tall. Strangely, all those other giants appeared only after he had intimidated some ghoul of the first of the Princes while we were waiting for our audience. ;))
After being humiliated with mind control powers, we still tried to follow the plot. But, seeing as we weren't quick enough for his tastes (i.e., we role-played a little rather than only following the plot), the Prince of Cairo soon summoned us to him again and chastised us.
We had had enough then and there and so attacked the Prince.
After we had killed about half of his bodyguards (four veteran Vampire players vs. a GM who, even though his characters were stronger and outnumbered us at least 5-1, still couldn't touch us because he knew absolutely nothing about effective tactics in Vampire) and the GM was nearing a violent rage, I told him that we should stop there. He agreed - and so, we called it a day.

As a player, he's still a munchkin who's interested in nothing else than his own power. He'll lie, cheat, steal and kill - and as often as not, the other PCs are his intended victims.

3) The meat grinder: He encourages role-playing and PCs' being cool. He lets you run wild in his world and kill/trick/steal from/whatever almost anyone, allow every dirty trick (even most munchkin ones), if your character can do it. You don't have to follow his plot if you don't want to, either...
Heh. He's also the most combat-oriented GM or player that I've ever met. :D

While looking for information, you'll meet bullies in a tavern who will rough you up a little if you get cocky.

On the way, you'll run into legions and legions of guards - usually starting about 3 minutes after play begins.

Oh, and did I mention ninja assassins in hotels? We can't forget those, can we? :p

You won't meet unmotivated wandering monsters, though; only determined, violent warriors (or guard beasts) working for the other side.

Sometimes, you have to fight your own side, too, because those you now have to fight have been tricked into thinking that you're working for the enemy.

You'll also have ample opportunity to face off against the forces of law and order if you cause much random property damage (which is likely, given how often you must fight).

If a PC dies, he'll sometimes come back as an undead creature - which you then have to fight, of course. (That happened only in one game that I was in, admittedly, and the dead PC had been a victim of "friendly fire." Really, I didn't mean to kill him that first time - he was too careless, and I rolled a botch, so... :o I didn't mind killing him again after he had returned as a spectre of vengeance.)

And all this leads to a final, climactic battle with the powerful major villain behind it all. (First, you have to defeat 2-3 waves of his bodyguards and henchmen, though, of course.)

Heh. I love playing in his games; he's one helluva DM for D&D - and probably an even better one for games like Feng Shui.
Just don't expect his Vampire games to contain much less combat... ;)

Oh, and he's a damn fine player, too. Only problem is (and it isn't always a problem, mind, just at those times when you want to run less combat-oriented games), he too often plays character like Int-, Wis-, and Cha-impaired orc barbarians.
That - or cougars, cat-people-warriors (Int/Wis/Cha-impaired, of course), basilisks, etc. :D
And now you may feel free to ignore my points and attack me personally for daring to hold DM's up to a higher standard, and not buying into the DM bias of these boards.
No, you should not feel free to attack reapersaurus personally now, this being EN World... ;)
 

Here's an example of a knee-jerk reaction I had when I was DMing four players:


A L5 Druid in my game had saved up all of his accumulated treasure. He then wanted to buy a Tan Bag of Tricks (6300gps). I let him buy it considering the PCs where staying in a small city of 6000 people (15,000 gp limit).

The next few gaming sessions consisted of either a brown bear, lion, warhorse, tiger, or rhinoceros single-handedly killing everything, while the rest of the party sat on their butts.

After a brown bear had munched one of the NPCs, a L2 minotaur ranger/archer (CR 6), I had had enough. I told the player that the bag was too powerful, and that the rest of the party wasn't contributing at all due to one magic item. His Bag of Tricks was downgraded to the Rust variety, I refunded the difference in money, and I also house ruled that bags of tricks can only function once a day (not ten times a week.)


Yes, I could have had a druid cast charm animal, or some other such nonsense, but there weren't any druid antagonists in the area, nor was I going to create one just to get even with one player.

I just felt that having a low level character casting a Summon Nature's Ally 5 for ten minutes a pop was a tad too powerful. Silly me. ;)
 
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Oh, I'm all about the nerf, Reapersaurus's faulty analysis notwithstanding. Both as a player and as a DM, I think judicious nerfing is invaluable.

And here's why.

If I'm to roleplay a reasonably intelligent PC who willingly risks her life on a daily basis fighting monsters and cultists and other nasties, I'm going to be constantly on the lookout for a "magic bullet," a tactic that consistently ensures my success. And when I find it, if I don't use it over and over again, I'm not playing an intelligent PC.

However, magic bullets are boring. As a player, I want to mix it up in combat. I want to be able to try out lots of different things. I want every battle to be unique, memorable. Magic bullets make every battle the same.

Even worse, magic bullets are downright dreary when they're in another PC's control. It really sucks to be rendered irrelevant to the party's success by another PC's one overpowering tactic.

So I want my DM to ensure that there are no magic bullets. If Wall of Thorns works against virtually all opponents, let's nerf it until it's only effective sometimes (e.g., rule that it inflicts 25 1-HP wounds on its victims, making damage reduction effective against it; or rule that a victim only takes damage from movement if he actually attempts a move action). Same thing with Harm, or with GMW bows and GMW arrows, or with blindsight + darkness, or with any of the other tactics that outshine everything else at the levels they become available.

Similarly, when I DM, I try to eliminate magic bullets from my campaign world. I do this because it makes the game more fun for my players; they've explicitly asked me to do so. One player even asked me to nerf the blindsight+darkness combo after he'd used it himself: he realized it was going to become standard battle tactics for the group otherwise, and that it wouldn't be much fun if it did.

**************************

Given that defense of nerfing, I'll add three caveats, two for DMs and one for players:
1) Nerf only between sessions. This gives you time to discuss the nerf with players and make sure they'll deal well with it.
2) Compensate PCs for a nerf if necessary. If you decide to nerf the GMW-arrows and GMW-bow combo, allow the PC who's sunk all his feats into archery to trade two or three feats out if he wants to.
3) As a player, discuss new and questionable tactics with the DM between sessions. Do you want to start using illusionary (glamer) allies to draw attacks of opportunity from your enemies? Tell your DM, and ask him how he'll work this. He'll need to figure out whether the enemy will make an attack roll, what the illusion's AC will be, and so forth. If you give him a couple of days before the session to think about it, he's far likelier to come up with a good ruling than if you spring this question on him in the middle of combat.

Daniel
 
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ConcreteBuddha said:
Here's an example of a knee-jerk reaction I had when I was DMing four players:
Yeah... That's a variation on the problem of higher-level starting characters wanting to blow most of their cash on one really powerful item - which the DM, in most cases, should consider very, very carefully. You handled it well, IMO, BTW. :)
 


Daniel - good approach, but I have a better one in that instance:
Have the DM list the things he doesn't like about the rules IN HIS WORLD right from the get-go.

Players can only work within the parameters that the DM allows them to.
I'm not referring to instances where one PC dominates combat with a tactic, decreasing the fun for everyone, therefore the DM must step in.

I'm referring to instances where a PC is just good at something.
Better at something than someone else *gasp*, or maybe even bettere than his NPC's or monsters.
Too many DM's knee-jerk want to stop a PC from being good at something, not to save the 'campaign balance', but (effectively) to not allow a PC to shine.

And in your well-written example, it is that DM's responsibility to state his rules limitations during character creation.
Not on an ongoing, player-denying, arbitrary knee-jerk basis.

It's not like the players can hide things about their character's : it's all on the character sheet - hell, if a DM asked, I personally would connect the dots and tell the DM exactly everything about the character, so that he doesn't spring surprise nerfs from the woodwork.
 

reapersaurus said:
Daniel - good approach, but I have a better one in that instance:
Have the DM list the things he doesn't like about the rules IN HIS WORLD right from the get-go.

This is important, and should've been at the top of my list of caveats. Can I make it a corollary to caveat #1? Nerf whenever possible before character generation.

However, that's not always possible. D&D is an immensely complicated game, as evidenced by this forum. No DM is going to be able to think of every possible strategy before the game begins, before character generation. If you're trying to eliminate magic bullet strategies, you'll need to nerf sometimes in the middle of the game.

(the flip-side of this, of course, is sometimes you'll need to beef things up in the middle of the game. If you find, as I did, that characters with 2 skill-points per level are ineffective in a political city-based campaign, you might need to give an across-the-board award of 2 extra skill-points per level to all PCs for awhile).

Daniel
 

Pielorinho said:
However, that's not always possible. D&D is an immensely complicated game, as evidenced by this forum. No DM is going to be able to think of every possible strategy before the game begins, before character generation. If you're trying to eliminate magic bullet strategies, you'll need to nerf sometimes in the middle of the game.

I agree with this 100%. Since I tend to start play at 1st level, and I am not infallable, I cannot possibly know every combination that a player may pull in the game.

On a side note: I have no problem with characters being effective, I have a problem when one PC shines at the expense of everyone else. This is a subjective referee call. (A good sign is when a PC is hogging the limelight while the other players are sitting around waiting for munch-PC to finish. I will step in to remedy the situation.)

Example: We have a player in our group who will only play archers. Or more specifically, Fighter/OOBI/Deepwood Sniper/AA/Peerless Archers. With no regard to a character concept besides doing lots of damage [more damage than anyone else]. He also expects to have GMW, on both his arrows AND bow. If a caster does not want to give him GMW, he gets angry. Yes, he is a bad player, but he is not bad enough to kick him out of the group [ah, if life were only so simple].

There are multiple ways to handle this:

1) Have all the NPCs use wind wall/warp wood/cover/sunder his bow.

2) Nerf GMW.

3) Nerf the PrCS.

4) Let it go while the other players are bored beyond belief. (Which has happened. Multiple. Times.)

What would you do in this situation? (I know what I would do IMC. Unfortunately, I am not the DM of this specific game, so none of the above options have happened.)
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Darkness---
Yeah... That's a variation on the problem of higher-level starting characters wanting to blow most of their cash on one really powerful item - which the DM, in most cases, should consider very, very carefully. You handled it well, IMO, BTW.

Thank you for the compliment. :)
 

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