D&D 5E Never Give Them Unlimited Black Powder

[wingsandsword]

Bags of Holding, Item spells, Portable Holes. It's not bulky enough to stop them from using it, at all. So, yes, they CAN chuck full powderkegs at an enemy. Telekinesis helps. So does Floating Disks, if they are clever. Heck, tie it to a Summoned creature and send it in.
Gunpowder does blast damage, not just fire damage. It will kill people with concussion, not just burn them.
We're not worried about knocking down buildings so much as doing a lot of damage to things... and a barrel of gunpowder going off in a red dragon's mouth is NOT going to be something it can shrug off easily.
Players can and will abuse gunpowder. Magic gives them the tools to do so.
Even worse... if fire resistance/immunity works against it, that means any character with Protection against Fire can walk into the middle of enemies not so immune and light off barrel after barrel with impunity, right?

By the time a party is rich enough to be buying those kind of magic items, or have a wizard casting Item spells, they'll have access to all kinds of other magic items, spells, and such that gunpowder seems like a very inefficient use of resources. Wasting item spells, Tenser's Floating Disc, that could be used on attack spells is just taking time and effort to use gunpowder like it was a fireball spell.

You're presenting an idealized scenario that ignores the various tactical circumstances where that just wouldn't work.

 

[Ancalagon]

A barrel of gunpowder will not do 20d6 points of damage.

The problem is not that it's enough gunpowder. It's the barrel. Black powder is a low explosive. if you put a pile of it on the ground and ignite and it will... burn. What makes it go boom is the increased pressure which keeps increasing until the container explodes. So the barrel is what explodes, and it will burst fairly quickly. I would guestimate in the 4d6 range?

 

[Aelryinth]

By the time a party is rich enough to be buying those kind of magic items, or have a wizard casting Item spells, they'll have access to all kinds of other magic items, spells, and such that gunpowder seems like a very inefficient use of resources. Wasting item spells, Tenser's Floating Disc, that could be used on attack spells is just taking time and effort to use gunpowder like it was a fireball spell.

You're presenting an idealized scenario that ignores the various tactical circumstances where that just wouldn't work.

No, I'm giving options for the non-magical. Floating Disk is a level 1 spell. Getting 20d6 damage out of it is OPTIMIZING the spell slot, and making that damage available to a LEVEL ONE character.
Item spells are cast days ahead of time, OUT of combat. Build up an inventory, swap out spells for combat, go into the battle with multiple kegs of gunpowder you pull out of nowhere.
Gunpowder isn't ever inefficient unless it is priced horribly, because the PC's can MAKE IT on demand. Very crucial. It's not whether magical item x is available for sale, it's "I have Alchemy, and I'm going to make blackpowder." And generally you can make it for a THIRD of the cost you'd buy it at...

 

[Aelryinth]

A barrel of gunpowder will not do 20d6 points of damage.

The problem is not that it's enough gunpowder. It's the barrel. Black powder is a low explosive. if you put a pile of it on the ground and ignite and it will... burn. What makes it go boom is the increased pressure which keeps increasing until the container explodes. So the barrel is what explodes, and it will burst fairly quickly. I would guestimate in the 4d6 range?

I think the general view of blackpowder in a magical world is the Bug Bunny version, which is a higher grade and would indeed blow up rather nicely.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think the general view of blackpowder in a magical world is the Bug Bunny version, which is a higher grade and would indeed blow up rather nicely.

.... what...? So we can't have black powder in a fantasy game because it's too powerful and the PCs will abuse it, but that's because the black powder in a fantasy game is magical black powder that is much more useful and dangerous that real black powder?!?

Either I really am not understanding this discussion, or this is completely absurd.

 

[MarkB]

I think the general view of blackpowder in a magical world is the Bug Bunny version, which is a higher grade and would indeed blow up rather nicely.

Not that I've ever heard of. Citation needed.

 

[Aelryinth]

Not that I've ever heard of. Citation needed.

Sure. Look at every post and module talking about using/blowing up gunpowder, every movie you've ever seen using it, and how much damage it does/is assigned to do.

Then look at every chemist saying 'in reality, gunpowder kegs don't do that!'

Then consider whether D&D pays attention to the first group of folks, or the second.

That's my citation.

As I'm pretty much with the first group, I explain it to the second group as 'better refined powder, possibly with alchemical help' to ease their consciences about defying the laws of chemistry.

IMC, gunpowder is just hugely volatile, and trying to stockpile it just makes a big explosion as hungry fire spirits set it alight. Gotta be VERy careful with the stuff, even in small amounts.

 

[Aelryinth]

.... what...? So we can't have black powder in a fantasy game because it's too powerful and the PCs will abuse it, but that's because the black powder in a fantasy game is magical black powder that is much more useful and dangerous that real black powder?!?

Either I really am not understanding this discussion, or this is completely absurd.

They are making a false argument.
People have already stated what black powder does. The fact that it doesn't do that 'in reality' means nothing. What it does in the game tends to be what it does in movies, and what it does in fiction is blow up big and loud.

So the problems are: cost for damage; ease of buying; ease of making; ease of use by low level people; flexibility of use.
Explosives are just really useful, and really cheap ones really useful. That's the gist of it.
Adding in 'can't do this because in reality chemistry' is a possibility, and you can only hope they'll buy it.

 

[MarkB]

Sure. Look at every post and module talking about using/blowing up gunpowder, every movie you've ever seen using it, and how much damage it does/is assigned to do.

Then look at every chemist saying 'in reality, gunpowder kegs don't do that!'

Then consider whether D&D pays attention to the first group of folks, or the second.

That's my citation.

Most movie explosions involving a barrel of gunpowder I would estimate to be roughly equivalent to a fireball, except with more blast and less fire. Maybe switch half the damage dice to Thunder damage, and let it do double damage to structures.

As I'm pretty much with the first group, I explain it to the second group as 'better refined powder, possibly with alchemical help' to ease their consciences about defying the laws of chemistry.

IMC, gunpowder is just hugely volatile, and trying to stockpile it just makes a big explosion as hungry fire spirits set it alight. Gotta be VERy careful with the stuff, even in small amounts.

So basically, you've made this problem for yourself in your campaign, and now you're complaining about how problematic this problem that you've invented is.

 

[Aelryinth]

Most movie explosions involving a barrel of gunpowder I would estimate to be roughly equivalent to a fireball, except with more blast and less fire. Maybe switch half the damage dice to Thunder damage, and let it do double damage to structures.


So basically, you've made this problem for yourself in your campaign, and now you're complaining about how problematic this problem that you've invented is.

Um, no. What I did was explain why there is very, very little use of gunpowder and no gunpowder weapons IMC, and WHY they are not easily available. I headed the problem off before it started... it's part of campaign design, with a reason for it, instead of just blank fiat.

This puts the focus of attention back on magic, where its easier to balance. Allowing gunpowder opens up a broad can of techno-worms that 'realistically' would change the campaign world. I just nipped 'em off and didn't go down the road at all, staying to a more traditional campaign, is all.

I already noted earlier that the blast from a keg going off is more dangerous then the fire, especially if you pack it with nails and stuff.