Never going to "Dieing" in combat?

[Cerebral Paladin]

[MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION]: You're quite right that there needs to be a way to make healing timing matter (assuming you're going to be using combat healing at all, but eliminating combat healing altogether would be an even bigger change). You'd also need to have something to replace any effects like stunning or "save or die" type effects that you get rid of for the basic "don't drop till it's over" goal. But I'm not sure that's insurmountable. It clearly wouldn't be to everyone's taste, and it would make the current trend towards scary early fights and mop-up late fights even more pronounced. I think that some version of it could work well, however, for producing a cinematic feel and avoiding time spent out of the game.

 

[marli]

well interesting feedback. I take it that some just wouldnt lke the idea.
lets focas on a few points.

an implausible game even more implausible.

it not like you dont see this in movies that otherwise dont break the rules of physics, and yet you cant seem to see this in world of two tonne flying lizards and people causing matter to ignite through thought alone?

my PC Died, that sucks.

I dont mind dieing from my mistakes, I get the newbie guy with no kit my pusishment. what I do mind is the fact for the next hour i sitting there doing nothing . (combat takes that long)

The concept that every PC has to be "THE HERO" every encounter was what led to this PC's death.

I agree, and I dont in anyway suggest that those sort of things should happen. i dont suggest that death becomes avoidable. but that you get to play a risk/gain option(eg drop there and hope your party revives you, slowly back away, stand and defend wait for healing, fight on risking your life, go all out save the day AND DEFINATLY DIE) do this every fight and you will soon lose your character, which is punishment enough for me. but hey at least you spend 40min playing RP.

So if I understand you right, my 100-hp dude can take 149 points of damage and just keep swinging until the fight is over, giving anyone with any healing all the time in the world to save them and taking all the pressure off.

that is a possiblity i hadnt thought off. I guess I could add the rule, "unless you drop your exertion makes you "save" vs healing" effectily holding it at bay.??
good point.

Note that this also needs to be considered with the game's approach to raising the dead. If the dead can be raised easily, then increasing the probability of PCs dying while guaranteeing that the PCs can win every fight has the effect of vastly increasing the PCs' capabilities.

good point.

[MENTION=3448]Cerebral Paladin[/MENTION]> thanks, great post

 

[S'mon]

I'd say overall this was a terrible idea that creates a perverse incentive. From experience (I allowed this in an OGL Conan game by means of Fate Points): the altruistic players will never 'drop', they'll keep fighting and lose their PC. The selfish players will 'drop', increasing the chance that the rest of the group will be defeated, ie their PCs will die. And for almost everyone, a dead PC is far worse than missing part of a combat because your PC's been dropped. The altruistic players on their 3rd PC will come to greatly resent the selfish players still on their 1st PC.

There is a very good reason for having a compulsory dropped/dying phase between 'Up' and 'Dead'. I strongly advise you not to mess with it.

 

[Ryujin]

I could see some groups liking this sort of thing, but not mine. Some of the best combats that I can remember, involved scrambling to get a PC back on his feet before it's too late. One of these involved the Cleric going down which, considering no one else had healing abilities and they leaned so hard on the Pacifist that they took a real pounding, meant that someone had to managed to break off combat and administer a Heal check.

 

[klofft]

Also not to my taste, at least not for D&D. (The best death mechanic I've ever seen is in Neoplastic's Books of Pandemonium, Dread and Spite, in which everyone dies like a badass - but that's appropriate to that game's action-horror genre)

Where I see this idea especially problematic in 4th ed is the built-in team dynamic. It does suck to be dying as a result of sucky die rolls, but in a good team dynamic, getting that character back on their feet is a priority (and often one that makes good tactical sense as well). So in this case, such a mechanic seems unnecessary.

The other alternative is that someone is dying because they did something stupid. Now, if this character does something stupid and gets killed, do I want them to continue to get in the way of a possible team dynamic that will lead to victory instead? Seriously: sometimes PC death is a good cure for stupidity in tactical play.

Finally, as a mechanic, the version you proposed seemed a little more complicated than it needs to be, but YMMV.

But if this works for your group and you're having fun, it's all good.

 

[Quickleaf]

Not saying I would use this, but it does solve the yo-yo of dropped/reviving PCs in 4e. Personally, I've just reinterpreted what "downed" means so that a PC isn't unconscious until they fail a death save; up until that point they're on one knee, against the ropes, glaring in a daze through bloody eyes, etc.

 

[Zuche]

If your players are bored with having their characters lie around for an hour, waiting for revival, I can see why you'd want to change the rules. I think it should come at a higher price, however. At the very least, the player should still have to keep making death saving throws for as long as the character remains below 1 hp. It couldn't hurt to treat the character as dazed while this dying-but-conscious state lasts.

If that seems too generous, or the dazed status seems too high, my next suggestion is that a character in the dying-but-conscious state automatically fails: 1) any saving throw, 2) death saving throws, or 3) any saving throw except for a death saving throw. I think either of those first two options is the way to go here, because it ensures the player pays a toll for the benefit.

 

[Arlough]

How about this variant.

• If a player is at or below 0 HP, they are stunned, and must make death saving throws as normal.
• If a player fails a death saving throw, they loose a surge (instead of 3 fails and you are dead).
• A player with no surges and no XP who fails a death saving throw is dead.
• They can choose to "push" themselves. If they do so, they will automatically forfeit their death saving throw at the end of their turn (thus failing it), and will be dazed instead of stunned until the beginning of their next turn.

It adds a cost to pushing yourself, but allows for heroic moments. More of the cinematic feel the op seems to be looking for.

Edit: Edited for grammar correction.