Neverwinter Nights 2!!!

[takyris]

Spoiler

Specifically, romance.

I can partially answer this, not for Obsidian but from what I know from BioWare's experience with Wizards:

Spoiler

Wizards didn't want romances. If we pushed for romances, Wizards pushed back. That's why the romances you had in Hordes of the Underdark were so very understated. Wizards pitched their stance as "Romance could drive away our younger players, and it could open up uncomfortable territory, and we don't want to risk it, and it's not what D&D is really about."

This meant that on-screen decapitations were wonderful and fine, but a kiss between two consenting adults was not. If I'm remembering right, if you see a kiss animation in a NWN module, it's because somebody hacked it in there. Wizards did not want BioWare to make one.

So while I have been as skeptical as anybody about the story, and whether parts of it were rushed as they were in KotOR2, this is almost definitely not one of those situations. I'd say that this is Wizards flexing its muscles and Obsidian choosing to fight other battles elsewhere.

No idea whether Wizards is right or wrong to make that call, but it's their right to do so. Obviously, I'd prefer that things be different, but I'm 30, and my opinion is a bit different from those of the 13-year-olds they're trying to get to buy the game. They probably knew already that they had my money.

 

[Banshee16]

I can partially answer this, not for Obsidian but from what I know from BioWare's experience with Wizards:

Spoiler

Wizards didn't want romances. If we pushed for romances, Wizards pushed back. That's why the romances you had in Hordes of the Underdark were so very understated. Wizards pitched their stance as "Romance could drive away our younger players, and it could open up uncomfortable territory, and we don't want to risk it, and it's not what D&D is really about."

This meant that on-screen decapitations were wonderful and fine, but a kiss between two consenting adults was not. If I'm remembering right, if you see a kiss animation in a NWN module, it's because somebody hacked it in there. Wizards did not want BioWare to make one.

So while I have been as skeptical as anybody about the story, and whether parts of it were rushed as they were in KotOR2, this is almost definitely not one of those situations. I'd say that this is Wizards flexing its muscles and Obsidian choosing to fight other battles elsewhere.

No idea whether Wizards is right or wrong to make that call, but it's their right to do so. Obviously, I'd prefer that things be different, but I'm 30, and my opinion is a bit different from those of the 13-year-olds they're trying to get to buy the game. They probably knew already that they had my money.

I wouldn't say this is limited to just Wizards.....it seems pretty prevalent in western, particularly American, cinema. How many movies will allow kids....let's say 13 year olds, watch a bunch of "heroes" engage in gun battles with "villains" in the streets of major cities, or blowing up a villain's truck, throwing him out of a plane, or whatever? But throw some pics of a woman's bare chest in there, or of consensual relations between two adults, and all of a sudden, it's an R movie.

I remember when I worked at a video store like 12 years ago, when I would see parents put away a movie featuring a sex scene, because they didn't want their kids to see it, but pick up Rambo, or the Rock, or some other gratuitous action flick instead. I mean really. *That's* supposed to be more healthy?

What about the oddity of that incident with Grand Theft Auto, a game where players can spend hours killing people indiscriminately in the game......but at the end, there's a "sex scene" that could be unlocked via a code? I mean, the player's just spent how many hours killing fake people and committing crimes in the game? Where's the love for a little life affirming scene at the end?

I hadn't heard about the removal of the romances in NWN2, but am disappointed in the choice. I honestly didn't come across them in the first NWN, so I didn't think they were included even there. But I remember them fondly in BG2. They gave a sense of depth and realism to the game....and a level of maturity (ie. well-adjusted, grown up, etc....I don't mean simply 18+), that most D&D games lack.

Banshee

 

[trancejeremy]

Hmmmm, well, this apparently is a hot issue on the official forums as well (14 page thread which then got locked, and a bunch of others (well over 100 responses when I did a search)

(Warning: Spoilers in thread in link !)

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=511257&forum=110&sp=0

There are some posts by one of the lead designer, pages 4-7. Seems like they are saying it was deliberate (either for plot purposes, or because he simply doesn't like such things, or to save time, he's somewhat contradictory, which could mean he's covering for Wizards).

Whatever the reason, it stinks.

 

[trancejeremy]

I
I hadn't heard about the removal of the romances in NWN2, but am disappointed in the choice. I honestly didn't come across them in the first NWN, so I didn't think they were included even there. But I remember them fondly in BG2. They gave a sense of depth and realism to the game....and a level of maturity (ie. well-adjusted, grown up, etc....I don't mean simply 18+), that most D&D games lack.

Banshee

Spoiler

Just to clarify, there is romance in NWN2, but there's only 1 option for it, for each sex. Which stinks because there are clearly more options that should be possible. That's the disappointment.

I wasn't actually referring to the physical stuff (which I think is probably best left off camera, in order to give the characters some privacy).

Even if there was physical stuff, it wouldn't bump the rating up to Teen. The Sims 2 has kissing, groping, "woohooing", even in public and in cars, and it's still just Teen rated. And the Sims franchise is the best selling PC game of all time, so it's not like it bothers anyone.

 

[Steel_Wind]

There are some romance options - just not many.

You need to appreciate that Hasbro Properties is the owner and ultimate licensor of this IP. Their core business is not D&D; it is Transformers, Monopoly and My Little Pony. Hasbro applies a very different standard of review to electronic games than they do to printed PnP D&D products.They want electronic games to promote their brand with positives while bringing along with them none of the negatives. The board of directors of Hasbro is a very conservative group.

The last thing they want to see is a same-sex romance or the implication of sex in their games. Why? Because they are in the toy business and their primary market is children under the age of 12. Thirty-five percent of the population in America self-identifies as conservative or evangelical Christian.

That's the way it is. This is about not having one of these groups take offence and go nuts on Wal-Mart and Target about their "evil and immoral games, harmful to children".

Is this ideal? No. Is it the developer's fault? No. Nobody is asking you to like this, simply to undestand the rationale as to why this is so.

 

[trancejeremy]

The last thing they want to see is a same-sex romance or the implication of sex in their games. Why? Because they are in the toy business and their primary market is children under the age of 12. Thirty-five percent of the population in America self-identifies as conservative or evangelical Christian.

That's the way it is. This is about not having one of these groups take offence and go nuts on Wal-Mart and Target about their "evil and immoral games, harmful to children".

Is this ideal? No. Is it the developer's fault? No. Nobody is asking you to like this, simply to undestand the rationale as to why this is so.

Sheesh, did you really have to start the Christian bashing? Like I pointed out, the Sims has all that sort of stuff, and somehow has avoided a boycott, and become the best selling PC game franchise of all time.

And did I ever say I wanted same sex stuff, or anything physical? No, I just wanted more choices than

Spoiler

a hippie druid, which is far likely to offend conservatives more than just about anything else . There are lots of other obvious choices in the game - Neeshka, Shandra (meant to be a false romance, which I think is unfair), Qara, Kana, even Captain Brelaine (the only attractive female in the game, character model wise IMHO)

And frankly, I don't know if it's the developer's fault or not. While I believe Takyris, the NWN2 developer seemingly said it was a design choice on their part. And if you had your way, no one could ever criticize Bioware, Obsidian, or anything connected to NWN.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Jeremy,

I explained it as it was explained to me. I've developed a licensed product under these rules and provided you the whys and wherefores.

If you don't like that explanation - go believe whatever it is you choose to believe.

 

[takyris]

And frankly, I don't know if it's the developer's fault or not. While I believe Takyris, the NWN2 developer seemingly said it was a design choice on their part. And if you had your way, no one could ever criticize Bioware, Obsidian, or anything connected to NWN.

Here's a complete guess, based on a) what I know of Wizards/Hasbro and b) what I know of Obsidian: they tried in good faith, pushed the envelope on the romances, realized that they'd bitten off more than they could chew with respect to Wizards/Hasbro when the smackdown over the romances came down, and were faced with either last-minute rewrites on a major scale or cutting the romances entirely. They opted to cut the romances rather than see them be ruined by forcing them to conform to standard.

Not a slam on Obsidian. Not a slam on Wizards. Not a slam on anybody. They tried, and they can say that it was their decision so they don't look like beaten animals, but the decision was the lesser of two evils.

Like I said, complete guess. Complete. I have no insider information. But that's the way it happens a lot of the time, and after it happens, it's pretty popular to turn it into "A great thing we decided to do." Slamming the people who are letting you use their ruleset rarely gets you kind words in future deals. It just makes you look unprofessional.

 

[Steel_Wind]

And did I ever say I wanted same sex stuff

No, you didn't. The difficulty then comes with making sure you don't miss something so it doesn't happen unintentionally.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to bug-test for some of these issues?

Sure, you sort out gender. But then there are race elements too. Halflings and human romances don't work very well. Elves and dwarves is a little odd too. Half-orcs? On and on it goes. Where do you draw the line?

And before you know it, you are spending most of your time making sure romance dialog does not trigger, as opposed to writing it.

 

[Matchstick]

Is this the clearing where there is

Spoiler

a fire burning, and a tent and everything? Right by the lakeshore? I went there, and found the campsite, but no William. If that's where he is, I'll go take another look....if he's not there, maybe there's a bug or something.

I first went to that area with my familiar, to scout it out without being noticed, and just found the empty camp.

I'll take a look where you recommend.

Banshee

I read something that mentioned that he may not be there at night. So I'd try both the nighttime and the daytime.