New Characters - Advice on building?

[DracoSuave]

cheesy as hell but half elf avenger dagger master sounds about perfect

Ardent Champion with Heavy Blade Master is only 3% crit chance less than Dagger Master, but does 20 points more damage with each crit, and each crit gives an extra attack.

That extra attack with one crit a round makes Ardent Champion -way- better than Daggermaster. Especially considering your powers are based on using a two-handed weapon, rather than a 1d4 poker of fail.

 

[outsider]

If you're worried about gaining combat advantage without flanking, drow is your answer. Using either of their encounter powers gives you combat advantage until the end of your next turn, meaning two sneak attacks. Once you hit paragon, there's a feat that allows you to use both of the racial encounter abilities in every encounter, meaning you can gain 4 rounds of combat advantage every encounter purely from racials. You also get +2 dex and +2 stealth, which are obviously handy for a rogue. +2 charisma and +2 intimidate are really handy for an artful dodger, but even a brutal scoundrel appreciates the intimidate. Drow is without a doubt the best artful dodger race so far, and it's close to the top for brutal scoundrel too.

 

[DracoSuave]

Plus, a careful look at the rogue list shows a minimum of 20 powers in the PHB1 alone that give combat advantage in a direct "have CA or a condition that gives CA" manner. This doesn't count the ones that allow you to use Stealth or Flanking to gain CA.

Anyone who says rogues have troubles with CA outside of flanking is selling you porky pies.

 

[outsider]

Oh, absolutely. Heck, if I remember right, there's even a daily power at level 1 that gives you combat advantage against the target(save ends). Drow just gives you more flexibility on the powers you can choose. Either way, rogues should have combat advantage nearly all the time if built properly.

 

[pascalnz]

the dagger master build I was thinknig of, was because he wanted something just like V . i.e. using daggers, not big ass swords. also with half elf, you can take twin strike so your at will is two more chances, i.e. 4 attack roles crit 18-20, and you can keep dex high, unlike when you grab heavy blade mastery.

 

[Iron Sky]

Ardent Champion with Heavy Blade Master is only 3% crit chance less than Dagger Master, but does 20 points more damage with each crit, and each crit gives an extra attack.

At Epic levels anyway. Personally, any build that "kicks ass at Epic" is one I pretty much ignore. Not to say Ardent Champion isn't good at Paragon, just Dagger Master gets its full crit range increase at Paragon without the need for an Epic feat.

 

[pascalnz]

I know it's based on equipment, but a jagged full blade is pretty damn sweet for ardent champions...well avengers in gernall, but the free swing at 16th is super cool.

 

[DracoSuave]

At Epic levels anyway. Personally, any build that "kicks ass at Epic" is one I pretty much ignore. Not to say Ardent Champion isn't good at Paragon, just Dagger Master gets its full crit range increase at Paragon without the need for an Epic feat.

Dagger Master doesn't allow you to

A) Crit with a high-crit weapon

B) Crit with more than 10% rate with a high-crit weapon

C) Give you bonus attacks with a high-crit weapon

D) Use a two-handed weapon with a high-crit weapon.

E) Use a vorpal weapon.

F) It doesn't suck the other times you attack and do not crit.

Yes, Ardent Champion really shines in Epic tier, obviously. But it's hardly -bad-.

Read C-D again, and that's why Ardent Champion is better for an Avenger. Ardent trades a slightly less crit range for a much heavier, more powerful crit. When an Ardent crits, he means -business-. He's not critting with a dagger. He's critting with your death.

 

[pascalnz]

it's only worth taking daggermaster with a half elf that can take twin strike as an at will at paragon.

it's two chances at 29% to crit every round.
if you add in things like war rings [you can get up to three with av2] thats a lot more to your extra crit. grab a .. I think blood iron weapon , doubles your extra crit damage.
you can also bloodclaw and reckless cheese with it.

you also get to keep your dex up instead of having to drop points into strength.

now don't get me wrong it's really really boring and reeeks of cheese.

but your critting more than twice as much
and can get[while more expensive] two weapon fighting cheese with enchants and feats etc.

dont' have to mess with alternate stat boosting.


for fun I'll do a little run down at lvl 30.

at will 4d6[br1 vorpal] + 6+ 7+ 6 crits =9d12 +4d10.

at will 2d4[br1 bloodiron] +6+6 +[12 reckless cheese -2 ac is a wash with the other guys lower dex[ crits = [6d10 +4d10]x2[bloodiron]

86 extra crit plus 20 weapon damage + 19 = 125 for a vorpal fullblade[approx]

110 extra crit + 6 weapon + 12 = 128 for half of a twinstrike. without reckless cheese.

so for at wills you hit wayy harder with daggermaster.

also you get twice the chance for special effects on crits.

it's boring and cheesey but it will do more damage.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Well,

thank you all for the advice. I admit I was not wondering about epic yet.

Avenger is probably better but I think the rogues ideas are fine for now.

Just curious: why people are sugesting half-elf? Must be some cheesy thing I am missing... Just for the diletante power?