New class of spell (PEACH)

[dmcallis]

My point was that it's not a matter of "only the rogue or wizard can do it." If there's no rogue in the group, and no character with Thievery, and no caster with knock, the party can just bash the door down. It's not a question of overshadowing the rogue anymore, since everyone can take Thievery, so infax's fears are mostly unfounded.

In terms of cost, I don't think a monetary cost is required; the only reason rituals have a long casting time is to prevent them being used in combat, and then they have a large cost to prevent them from being used too often. Since you already want them to be used in combat, there wouldn't be a concern about them being usable too often, since any encounter power can be used as often or more often.

So you don't need a monetary cost or a long casting time; what you need is a danger cost: something that would make it dangerous to use it in combat, whether from a status condition or loss of health. I'd suggest that it cost a single healing surge when you start to cast it, and every botch dazes you for a round. You wouldn't care outside of combat, just try longer, but if you need to knock that door open now because monsters are chasing you, a round daze

Yes, the healing surge cost should be enough to discourage their use wholesale. But I can see material components being used also. This would be decided on a per-Incantation basis just what the material components are and what they cost (if anything).
I would see no problem with making the components optional on a per-campaign basis. i.e. It'd be up to trhe DM if he wants to go that way or not. It just fits my "vision" of the mechanic, so I'd use them, but we'll make it optional, so it isn't forced. And of course each Incantation would have the yes/no of the DM to be in their campaign in the first place.

Now on to actually making up the list and deciding on the casting modifiers for each.

I'd rather do this offline and post it when I have a beginning of the list put together.

Feel free to start without me, we seem to be on the same track anyway. Thanks for the input all, it's appreciated.

 

[dmcallis]

OK, as promised - the beginning of a list.
Existing rituals I could see as being converted (i.e. worth the sacrifice to have them in a hurry)

Comprehend Language
Make Whole
Silence
Endure Elements
Water Walk
Detect Secret Doors
Arcane Lock
Knock
Halluconatory Item
Phantom Steed
Water Breathing

All would have at least their durations cut down from the Ritual's value, I'd say to a maximum of five minutes at most (the definition of an encounter power's duration) and perhaps pared down mechanics.

These would be for emergency use only, remember. So they just need to be able to deal with an emergency situation for a relatively short amount of time.

This list is only a start, there are a LOT of "lost" spells which could be converted this way.

I'll post more as I get things worked out.

Input and criticism welcome.

 

[ff6shadow]

I like the idea. Noy much to contribute right now, but definetly an interesting idea.

 

[Paul Strack]

Rather than defining a new class of spells, why don't you create a fast-cast system that applies to *all* rituals. That way you don't have to go through and cheery-pick which ones can and cannot be fast-cast. You also don't have to worry about rituals from new game books.

I think it won't break the game in most cases if the ritual still takes a couple rounds to cast (your random system is good). You can make fast rituals maybe require a special Feat, double the normal component cost and/or an extra healing surge from the strain. You just need fast rituals to be expensive enough that the party will only use them if they really need them.

If necessary, you can decide which rituals *can't* be fast-cast.

 

[Timba]

Maybe the Magic Dust would be a good solution. It would be similar to Ritual Scroll, but its price would be 5 times more: Only 10 minutes long ritulas can be used in Magic Dust form, but you don't have to use components and using it talkes only 1 standard action.

 

[dmcallis]

Making generic ritual to incantation conversion rules could be done perhaps, I'll keep that in mind, but if the cost is kept high enough to limit their widespread use most of the existing rituals would never be used as incantations anyway, IMHO.
Please feel free to point out any possible instances where I have missed any for my list where an incantation is called for.

The use of residium is an interresting idea. The stuff is very rare, expensive, and can be used in rituals already, so I'll definitely put its effect into incantations. Good catch there.

 

[dmcallis]

Existing Ritual:​

Comprehend Language​

As you finish the ritual, the guttural language of the creatures before you clarifies into something you understand.​

Level: 1
Category: Exploration
Time: 10 minutes
Duration: 24 hours
Component Cost: 10 gp
Market Price: 50 gp
Key Skill: Arcana

When beginning the ritual, choose a language you have heard or a piece of writing you have seen within the past 24 hours.​

Using this ritual on a language you have heard allows you to understand it when spoken for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to speak the language fluently for the duration.
Using this ritual on a language you have seen as a piece of writing allows you to read the language for the next 24 hours and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to write the language in its native script or in any other script you know for the duration.

Using this ritual on a language you have both heard and seen as a piece of writing within the past 24 hours allows you to understand it in both forms for the next 24 hours, and an Arcana check result of 35 or higher allows you to ​

​

speak and write the language.

As a Incantation:​

Comprehend Language​

As you finish the incantation, the guttural language of the creatures before you clarifies into something you understand.

Level: 1
Category: ​

​

Exploration​

Casting Modifier: 0

Duration: Encounter (5 minutes)
Component Cost: 10 gp plus one Healing Surge
Market Price: 50 gp
Key Skill: Arcana​

When beginning the incantation, choose a language you have heard or a piece of writing you have seen since your last rest.​

Using this incantation on a language you have heard allows you to understand it when spoken for the next 5 minutes and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to speak the language fluently for the duration.
Using this incantation on a language you have seen as a piece of writing allows you to read the language for the next 5 minutes and, if your Arcana check result is 35 or higher, to write the language in its native script or in any other script you know for the duration.

Using this incantation on a language you have both heard and seen as a piece of writing since your last rest allows you to understand it in both forms for the next 5 minutes, and an Arcana check result of 35 or higher allows you to ​

​

speak and write the language.​

Use of an Incantation:

To use an incantation, you must have a copy of the incantation available in the form of a scroll or have it in your book and be trained in its use. (SEE RITUALS)​

Upon beginning the casting of an incantation, spend a Healing Surge. If no Healing Surge is available, Hit Points equal to your Healing Surge value may be substituted, if after this loss you are still above 0 Hit Points.

When casting an incantation, you may take no other action during the casting, including the round in which the casting is begun, excluding the round on which the casting is successfully executed, when the casting takes a standard action. If the incantation is successfully cast on the round it is started, consider the casting took the full round.

Casting of the incantation may be ended at any time voluntarily, but doing so still uses up the material components used by the incantation, excluding the scroll, if it was being cast from a scroll, but including the Healing Surge required to begin the casting.​

To cast the incantation, make a casting check each round, applying the incantation's Casting Modifier to the roll. (This does not accumulate).

On a roll of a natural 1, the casting is botched. (See Botching, below)

On a modified roll of 10 or above, the casting is successful and the effects of the incantation take place after rolling the appropriate check for variable results (if any).​

If the casting is neither Botched nor Successful, the casting may be continued your next round.

If for any reason you are forced from the original square where the casting originated while actively casting (having started but not voluntarially ended the casting), the casting is automatically botched. (see Botching).

Casting an incantation does provoke OAs, as if using a ranged power. If the OA takes you to 0 Hit Points or below, the casting is automatically botched. (See Botching).

Upon taking damage while in the process of casting, you must make an immediate save (this may result in multiple saves if damaged by different attacks while casting, even in the same round and outside your own turn. This is an exception to the normal save rule.) A failure results in a botch, otherwise the casting proceeds normally.

Casting Check:

A casting check is like a save with the exception of the possibility of a Botch on the roll of a natural 1 on any round of the casting.​

Botching:

On the roll of a natural 1, the casting of the incantation is a failure.

You lose the material components used in the casting (including the scroll if a scroll was used in the casting attempt) Plus an additional Healing Surge on top of the one used to start the casting. If no Healing Surge is available, take Hit Point damage equal to the value of your Healing Surge, plus you also become stunned (save ends).​

OK, There you go. The mechanics and an example of a ritual become an incantation.​

Remember this is a PEACH.​

​

 

[cdrcjsn]

The point of the ritual system is so that not one person can solve every single problem during an encounter with magic.

It is part of what made wizards so powerful in 3e. It wasn't fireball. It wasn't magic missile. It was the ability to adopt to any situation by having the right spell at all times.

What you propose is to bring back that utility to a single character, since all they'll need is the incantation book.

The rituals are non-combat spells for a reason. As written, rituals are a party resource since everyone can aid the skill check and provide the components.

I suggest trying to run the rules as written for now before fiddling with it. The scenario pointed out (party trapped with a locked door) has many solutions already pointed out without introducing a potentially unbalancing mechanic.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

What you propose is to bring back that utility to a single character, since all they'll need is the incantation book.

The rituals are non-combat spells for a reason. As written, rituals are a party resource since everyone can aid the skill check and provide the components.

And is there a reason why Incantations wouldn't be (A) open to any class and (B) possibly cooperative? Really, all this does is change

"Damn, the kobolds are still coming! Fighter, hold them off for 100 rounds while the wizard and cleric work on the knock scroll and I work on picking the lock!"

to

"Damn, the kobolds are still coming! Fighter, hold them off for a round or two while the wizard work on the knock scroll and I work on picking the lock! Cleric, if the wizard goes down, heal him up and have him try it again."

 

[Timba]

The point of the ritual system is so that not one person can solve every single problem during an encounter with magic. ...

It is part of what made wizards so powerful in 3e. It wasn't fireball. It wasn't magic missile. It was the ability to adopt to any situation by having the right spell at all times.

What you propose is to bring back that utility to a single character, since all they'll need is the incantation book.

I see. And If I break the door all alone with a high strength wizard that is not unbalancing. But if I make it with a standard action long knock spell that is unbalalncing. Very interesting point view.