New cleric system?

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t think, giving the cleric a much smaller amount of spells would be unacceptable. Especially, if the classic priest is still available.

I would like healing spells beeing rituals. Only a few temporary buffs should be available during the fight. This would make balancing combat without the need for a healer much easier. And Clerics would mainly extending the adventuring day.

 

[Quickleaf]

I was impressed by Green Ronin's "Medieval Players Manual" (Medieval Player's Manual - Green Ronin | RPGNow.com) for it's treatment of clerics. Specifically they include a system of "charisms" which are divine gifts that drew from Christian lore about the power of saints. Very original stuff!

I think you could combine that with an aura-based class (like the bard's skald build in Feywild book) plus some of the ritual ideas in this thread and come up with a pretty cool divine caster.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Clerics shouldn't have to prepare spells - in fact I always thought they would have been better as 3E sorcerors, they know X spells but cast them however they like.

I do think that Clerics lend themselves to encounter or day long effects as a result of praying. I'd like to see Clerics able to recover powers during the day for performing works that satisfy their gods ethos - war gods want to see battles without anyone falling unconcious, Pelor probably wants you to destroy a bunch of undead etc.

 

[Kzach]

Conceptually, why should clerics have to prepare spells like a wizard? Should they get their own unique spell-casting model that better reflects praying to their god?

Personally I'd love to see this, as well as spheres and domains having a greater impact. I'd also like alignment to have an influence over what spells are available to a cleric. A neutral good cleric of Heironeous should be different from a lawful good one in more than just outlook. That is, of course, assuming alignment is going to be expanded in 5e.

I just thought of a great idea! The longer a cleric prays, the more powerful their spell! In a similar vein to the way the psion works in 4e, the cleric's prayers would all be at-wills that get more powerful as more power is invested in them. But instead of having points, they're based on how much time is spent casting them. They could all have an initial casting time of minor action, for instance. This would allow your battle-cleric types to go in swinging and still throw spells about, they're just not as strong as the ones that 'pure casters' have because they devote an extra action or even two, like say a move action to boost the power of it, or even a move AND a standard action (in addition to the minor action that they all require initially) to make it mind-blowingly awesome.

The power of prayer compels you!

 

[Quickleaf]

The power of prayer compels you!

As long as the player is required to roleplay appeasing Odin or Thor or whomever with great epithets and spontaneous oratory!

But seriously, I like your idea.

 

[Minigiant]

In my homebrew d20 game, cleric are spellcasting aristocrats.

See in my game, clerics are ministers who go to their deity's theology schools. They study there to learn quotations, hymns, and prayers (including the spell "Paladin" that turn someone into a paladin).

Prayers are personal pleas from the cleric. Spells casted as prayers are empowered and can spontaneously replace an available filled spell slot at any time. BUT prayers are forever stuck in the spell spot. For example, if a cleric cast cure light wounds as a has to always prepare CLW in a 1st level slot.

Hymns are spells learned from a holy spellbook like a wizard. It functions like a wizard spellbook. There aren't many and only the most common cleric spells have Hymns.

Quotations are spells from a spell list tailored to each deity. They can be prepare just like a 3.5 cleric and doesn't need a book for this spells.

So a 1st level swamp cleric might have CMW, create water, read magic, CLW, bless, and bless water in their spell book. He might know obscuring mist and entangle as quotations that all swamp clerics know. If the cleric needs to escape zombies he can pray for hide from undead. At this point he cannot remove that spell from that spell slot.

It creates many tense moments where players grab the cleric player's collar screaming "PRAY FOR THAT SPELL!" and the cleric player yelling "NO, I ONLY HAVE ONE 1ST LEVEL SPELL SLOT LEFT!". "MAYBE YOU SHOULDNT HAVE WASTED SLOTS ON THAT OTHER SPELL!" "THAT WAS YOUR IDEA!""WE GON DIE! SAVE US PELOR!"

The desperation and emotion caused before a prayer is casted fits the IC moment perfectly.

 

[Li Shenron]

A lot of people have suggested that they'd like to see, say, Wizards and Psionicists (and warlocks, etc.) use different casting systems so that they feel, mechanically, like different classes.

No one seems to have suggested where clerics fit into this.

Conceptually, why should clerics have to prepare spells like a wizard? Should they get their own unique spell-casting model that better reflects praying to their god?

Anyone?

Bueller?

3ed Clerics were indeed using a different system...

- they know ALL clerical spells by default instead of having to pick which ones
- the can cast cure xxx wounds spells spontaneously
- they use Wis instead of Int/Cha, this has no direct consequences of spellcasting itself but it has indirect consequences on other things all Clerics are good at
- (very minor difference) domain spells implied a slightly different preparation strategy having separate slots

Those are no truly major difference, but they are still however a departure from strictly vancian, and could be a starting point for creating a larger divide in strategic experience between the two classes, without necessarily having to drop the vancian aspects completely.

In my early years of D&D I often wondered why the clerics had to prepare spells since their powers came from the gods more or less directly, so I wouldn't mind if they changed this, but legacy with D&D traditions must also be preserved somewhat.

Instead I would rather want to put an end to this idea that clerics know all clerical spells... even a kid can see that this becomes a problem when using supplements and splatbooks.

 

[SKyOdin]

Instead I would rather want to put an end to this idea that clerics know all clerical spells... even a kid can see that this becomes a problem when using supplements and splatbooks.

I tend to agree. The problem with clerics inherently knowing all possible cleric spells isn't just one of balance, it is also one of character customization and differentiation. Spell choice is one of the key ways in which spellcasters can establish a unique identity. For example, a Wizard who defines himself as an ice-mage can do so by only learning ice and cold spells. If all clerics know every cleric spell, then they all begin to feel the same.

 

[SageMinerve]

To my mind, Clerics are mortal agents of a deity, which begs the question:

"Why does the Deity even bother?"

That answer will be different for different deities; Athena wants to promote (for example) civilization + reason vs barbarism + rage.

Athena's cleric, each time his actions work toward his deity's objective, rises in her regard. The easiest game-mechanic could be points (call it Karma, Favour, whatever) that the cleric accumulates over time.

You then have the cleric's spells organized by tresholds. Level 1 spells take (for example) 100 points, level 2 take 300 points, etc. The cleric can cast any spell that meet that treshold requirement.

It would give a very different feel to the Cleric, because his powers would result directly from diligently working to promote his deity's objectives.

It's not an easy system to implement, but I think something like that could be worth it.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'd like the idea of the cleric being a divine agent (different from regular priests) who is charged with missions from their god. The PrC could plane shift to the home plane of the deity and gradually turned into something resemblancing the god itself. Clerics could be developed with that PrC in mind. Some clerics could be open about their status and others could be shrouded in secrecy. This concept is pretty far removed from the jolly old European monk armed with a holy symbol and a mace and I'm not sure we are ready to leave that tradition after all. What do you think?

The powers of a divine agent should be granted before an undertaking. Once the cleric has embarked on a new mission it should not expect aid along the way. Think of it as the cleric receives his mission from M and is outfitted by Q. Once the quest is under way the cleric is on his own.

This way a cleric can be given powers that suit the theme of the adventure, a way of saturating even the characters with the theme, so that the characters are reasonably prepared for what is to come. The deity knows a dragon awaits but can't communicate this directly to the cleric, for that would destroy the cleric due to the deity's sheer awesomeness, but the deity can send a flame retardant shield. I think the foreshadowing of such gifts would add a lot to the game. "My oh my, a silvered crossbow bolt, I wonder why my god has sent this to me?"

(If the DM has not planned out the end of a quest in advance a random gift will point to a reasonable later conclusion).