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D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

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The problem with this is some people like working with limitations - they encourage creativity.
I also personally struggle with the concept of a Str 18 goblin or gnome, never mind 20.

And if "strength" was only used precisely when "strength" was called for-- pushing a boulder or breaking a chain, then it really wouldn't be a problem.

The issue is more "Should the Goblin or Gnome Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin have the same chance to hit and have the same bonus output as the Orc Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin if they are gaining no significant advantage in any other area?" and that answer to that-- if we are saying that any race can be any class in the setting and be successful-- is definitely yes.

It is just I would imagine that that chance to hit and damage for the Orc comes considerably more from raw brute strength while for the Gnome or Goblin, its probably coming more from precision strikes.

The issue is the instance that bonus to attack and bonus to damage can only possibly come from Strength and all other ability scores are discarded from consideration. Sever that arbitrary connection and suddenly it doesn't really matter if one race has a higher strength score or not.

And this isn't the only example. Pretty much every class in the game has everything entirely revolving around one or two arbitrarily decided ability scores and if you don't have the maximum possible bonus in those scores, you are not going to be successful in performing the class's functions.
 

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tI is just I would imagine that that chance to hit and damage for the Orc comes considerably more from raw brute strength while for the Gnome or Goblin, its probably coming more from precision strikes.
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And this isn't the only example. Pretty much every class in the game has everything entirely revolving around one or two arbitrarily decided ability scores and if you don't have the maximum possible bonus in those scores, you are not going to be successful in performing the class's functions.

You just did a great job describing the differences between Str and Dex based attacks, and how abstract ability scores work as a simulationist tool in games.

I still have no idea why this is necessary in a discussion of inclusivity.
 
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It's a bit daft to be talking about "Sixth Edition" at a time when the current version of the game is more popular than it ever has been, and is selling more copies than any other edition. But I've got nothing against a good thought experiment. :)

I don't want to see alignment removed, or even removed from creature stat blocks. I find that alignment is a helpful shorthand for roleplaying the general attitudes and dispositions of certain creatures. It would be frustrating for me to have to put them all back in. Rather than dropping them entirely, I just want the words "typically," "rarely," and "always" added. Like, bandits would be "typically chaotic neutral" or "typically evil," while modrons could be "always lawful (any)."

I agree that ability score bonuses should be detached from races. Heck, I'd put them straight in the trash if I'm being honest...starting stats are already plenty high enough. But if ability score increases are added at 1st level, I think it makes the most sense to link them to a character's background.

Definitely let the setting determine the culture and descriptions of the different creatures and races in the game. And definitely change the descriptios of orcs.

Drop the word "Race," and replace it with Ancestry (good call).

And as long as we are dreaming about stuff we would like to change:

Barbarian, Monk, and Ranger should all be subclasses of Fighter. Druid and Paladin should be subclasses of Cleric. Bard should be a subclass of Rogue, and Artificer, Sorcerer, and Warlock should all be subclasses of Wizard.
 

You just did a great job describing the differences between Str and Dex based attacks, and how abstract ability scores work as a simulationist tool in games.

I still have no idea why this is necessary in a discussion of inclusivity.

Probably different definitions of "inclusivity" then. Because to me, it seems like the issue is "people want to play any race as any class with any skin color or gender and not be significantly penalized for it."

That would be inclusivity within the game.

If you are focused at inviting a wider range of people to the table-- well, while the above may help to some extent, then what might actually be called for would be to have a wider variety of cultures that represent non-European elements in the game world and perhaps add a whole new array of races that represent the favorite fairies/goblins of different cultures from non-European countries just as the standard array has always been the old fairies from Europe.

That might mean creating a whole new game world-- maybe something akin to Planescape or one that was created by pulling cities/nations/islands from other worlds along with all their peoples, flora and fauna and just sort of meshing them together and they have been slowly blending ever since.

It might do much to help people from non-European backgrounds feel more heard, acknowledged and included.
 

The problem with this is some people like working with limitations - they encourage creativity.
I also personally struggle with the concept of a Str 18 goblin or gnome, never mind 20.
Okay, you just made a very general statement. "Limiting/Restricting someone's options encourages creativity." when paraphrased, right?

So, if I were to tie someone up in a dark room, restricting their options, would encourage them to be creative in that situation, right? Does that make my restricting their options right or good because I took away a bit of their freedom?

I have never seen anyone in my campaigns thank me for railroading them, or force them to play a certain character (I have not forced anyone to play a certain character, and railroad only very, very rarely).

And who cares if a PC goblin has a Strength of 18? The PCs are supposed to be exceptional examples of their race. I don't get the "isn't realistic" bit for ability scores for certain races. I don't get how racist, psionic, octopus people used to have a universe-spanning empire, or how yellow-skinned, egg-laying elves who were their slaves were able to beat those racist octopeople. Realism is mostly an unheard concept in D&D (I'll admit, I like a bit of realism in my games, but there is a point where you have to suspend your disbelief).
 

Probably different definitions of "inclusivity" then. Because to me, it seems like the issue is "people want to play any race as any class with any skin color or gender and not be significantly penalized for it."

That would be inclusivity within the game.

None of the bolded part is remotely related to the simulationist concept of Str and Dex ability scores. Furthermore, there are no penalties to Str and Dex for skin color or gender. Strength based and dex based fighters/barbarians/paladins/rogues all exist. And a single +2 to any ability does not constitute a debilitating penalty.

You're arguing that a huge rules shift to a completely rules light and non-simulationist game is the only way for D&D to achieve inclusivity. I reject that idea completely.
 

Strength based and dex based fighters/barbarians/paladins/rogues all exist. And a single +2 to any ability does not constitute a debilitating penalty.

You're arguing that a huge rules shift to a completely rules light and non-simulationist game is the only way for D&D to achieve inclusivity. I reject that idea completely.

I think that the str and dex based fighting styles point to the underlining problem. What about an Int based one? or a Cha one based on trickery? What about the amazing all rounder that's stronger than the fast guy, faster than the strong guy, more intelligent than the natural athlete, and so on. The game system is really bad at simulating a great fighter that relies on all his strengths put together being stronger than they'd be on their own.

Now you can actually have that with the more traditional system, but only if you're comfortable with having a new class/subclass and feats built around each of these concepts. Which leads to system bloat and complexity, and that's something that DnD has been trying to get away from for a while. Or you can start to distance ability scores from the most important class abilities and your fighting style becomes more about how you visualize your character.
 

It seems you keep raising two different issues...

One is racial ability bonuses.

Probably different definitions of "inclusivity" then. Because to me, it seems like the issue is "people want to play any race as any class with any skin color or gender and not be significantly penalized for it."

That would be inclusivity within the game.

There is nothing is stopping you from having a different skin color, that's possible in a race, or a different gender, with no penalty. And many DMs might even let you have green skinned humans or a new shade of Dragonborn. That might depend on whether they actually fit in a given campaign setting (some campaign settings wouldn't even allow some PhB races because they weren't part of that world).

There is nothing stopping you from playing any PhB race as any class. And the biggest penalty you take for a different PhB race is missing a +1 bonus on the rolls with that stat. +1. So I would say there is nothing stopping any race from being any class with no significant penalty.

One concern you've expressed before is that some current non-PhB races are significantly disadvantaged compared to the PhB ones. I think that complaint is spot on and should be fixed. It might involve the Hobogoblins starting young or having a level penalty, or the Goblin being extraordinary in some fashion - but I think they should do something to make as many of the different humanoids playable as possible.

And I like your point about expanding it to other parts of the world. Adding more real-world literary, trope, folklore, and myth spanning diversity to the monster books - and then playable races - seems super.


Your other repeated point seems to be about ability scores mattering for doing things, especially combat (something also noted above by @roger semerad above)

And if "strength" was only used precisely when "strength" was called for-- pushing a boulder or breaking a chain, then it really wouldn't be a problem.

The issue is more "Should the Goblin or Gnome Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin have the same chance to hit and have the same bonus output as the Orc Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin if they are gaining no significant advantage in any other area?" and that answer to that-- if we are saying that any race can be any class in the setting and be successful-- is definitely yes.

It is just I would imagine that that chance to hit and damage for the Orc comes considerably more from raw brute strength while for the Gnome or Goblin, its probably coming more from precision strikes.

The issue is the instance that bonus to attack and bonus to damage can only possibly come from Strength and all other ability scores are discarded from consideration. Sever that arbitrary connection and suddenly it doesn't really matter if one race has a higher strength score or not.

As has been noted by @Deset Gled , there are builds that make hitting and damage more dependent on Dexterity than Strength. And the single +1 modifier is hardly the end of the world in making a character.

And this isn't the only example. Pretty much every class in the game has everything entirely revolving around one or two arbitrarily decided ability scores and if you don't have the maximum possible bonus in those scores, you are not going to be successful in performing the class's functions.

If you want a high CHR but low STR and DEX character who is just as good in combat as the high STR and DEX character but also good great at acting, is it also reasonable for someone to ask for a high STR but low INT and CHR character who is just as good in spell casting as the high INT and WIS character but also great at stacking rocks?

But a lot of games have significant portions devoted to things besides combat. Why is combat the only thing where abilities should be completely interchangeable? Why can't the high CHR (low STR) character also be great at stacking rocks, the high CHR (low DEX) character be great at acrobatics, the high STR (low CHR) character be great at acting , and the high STR (low INT) character be great at math and research? At some point, if CHR isn't needed for acting, and STR isn't needed for rock-stacking, and INT isn't needed to be a wizard, and CHR can let you punch just as hard as STR, you essentially have made ability scores meaningless except for cinematically describing the character. As I've said before, at that point I'd argue that it seems that you don't actually want to play Dungeons and Dragons, but rather some other game that focuses just on your cinematic descriptions and a universal dice table (and there are lots of folks who pick other games to suit their particular tastes).

But I like the idea of INT or WIS character to for combat to hit and damage because of a well chosen or sensed strike location. And the reason I'd argue for a class that does that instead of just letting any ability apply, is that I don't see how it's reasonable, say to have one who bases to hit in melee on CON or CHR. Just as there are some stats that I would argue don't make particular sense for casting wizard spells or picking pockets or tracking someone in the woods.
 
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And who cares if a PC goblin has a Strength of 18? The PCs are supposed to be exceptional examples of their race. I don't get the "isn't realistic" bit for ability scores for certain races. I don't get how racist, psionic, octopus people used to have a universe-spanning empire, or how yellow-skinned, egg-laying elves who were their slaves were able to beat those racist octopeople. Realism is mostly an unheard concept in D&D (I'll admit, I like a bit of realism in my games, but there is a point where you have to suspend your disbelief).

I don't need a lot of realism in my game, and if the campaign world is such that goblins can have any strength because they don't follow the laws of physiology and physics that halflings, humans, and ogres do, then great. If that's how it is then I'll expect everyone to be darn careful in judging goblins by their looks.

My guess is that most worlds have some expectation of things like physiology and physics for things that are seemingly "normal" working similar to the real world. The really buff normal house cat isn't going to beat the really buff normal lion at killing the person who snuck into the cage. The normal shetland pony isn't going to be a better choice to pull the heavy wagon than the normal clydesdale. And the non-magical halfling weightlifter is certainly going to lose to the non-magical half-orc weightlifter.

Who cares if a PC goblin (in a world without magically any-strengthed Goblins) that has devoted everything to STR can get the same STR as a half-orc or dragonborn that devoted everything to STR? Maybe the person who picked the bigger stronger race explicitly to be bigger and stronger? Is it not enough for the goblin player that they can be within a measly 2 point difference from the dragonborn that went all out? Why doesn't the player who chose to play to type's story matter at all?
 
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