D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

[FrogReaver]

This is an argument I have had with people more than once. Somehow, LGBTQ+ automatically equates to porn (which, in D&D, often comes with "I don't want sex and romance in my games", but I've usually only seen this sentiment invoked when we're discussing inclusion.) The inclusion of a gay or nonbinary character or non-straight romance doesn't automatically mean a steamy bedroom scene. It can be handled the same way as a heterosexual romance (that is the "default" of any relationship in fantasy, whether the book is heavy on romance or not) is. Or, if there is a steamy bedroom scene, if it's a cis man and woman, no one bats an eye. Make it gay, and suddenly it's porn and "doesn't belong". I've also seen "but the children" arguments, because two men kissing in a children's show is too explicit , even though most children grow up on Disney and have seen dozens of kissing scenes between a man and a woman.

there’s a good portion of the world and even of developed countries that view homosexuality as immoral - at least on some level.

I think it’s easy to see where statements like the one you cites come from when this is taken into account.

 

[Sadras]

Personally I think it is important to know our history. Good and bad.
We don't stick our head in the sand like an ostrich and stop learning about humankind's attrocities.

When ones learns about the 2nd World War one doesn't skip the importance of the Nazi party during that period because of current neo-Nazi rhetoric.

 

[FrogReaver]

Now, ask yourself why.



My issue, primarily, is that the writer, not his work, but the writer himself, is being enshrined in the list of "Inspirational Reading" in the PHB. Not sure, really, that Lovecraft's works are all that inspirational. Note, there are tons of derivative works, lacking the rabid racism and bigotry, that deal with the Mythos, whose writers COULD be added to the list of things to read to inspire your D&D game.

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I just wanted to add another thought here.

The problem that these threads seem to have, and why @Remathilis mentions having to walk on eggshells is the lack of focus when discussing issues. @Remathilis mentioned removing all real world mythology from the game. Why? Is there a complaint about having Thor in D&D? I'm not aware of one and, if there is, what is the SPECIFIC complaint? "It might be offensive" is not the reason to change something. That's very much not a good enough reason to change anything. It's too vague, too broad and frankly, meaningless.

Take the Vistani issue. There is a very specific issue here - the depiction of Vistani as thieving, lazy, drunkards veers pretty uncomfortably close to the real world depiction of the Romani people, who, for hundreds of years, have gotten the short end of the stick. Now, does that mean you can never have a Vistani who is a thieving, lazy drunkard? Nope. You most certainly can. What you shouldn't do, though, is have EVERY Vistani be that. If you depict Vistani, then, well, depict all sorts, good and bad. It's a pretty easy solution to a specific problem.

Or, the OA that was mentioned above. Does this mean we can never have an Asian flavored setting in D&D? Of course not. The specific issue with the OA is the whole othering of cultures, fetishization, and the fact that the original OA book, despite purporting to be an "Oriental" book, is 99% Japanese flavored. A new Asian flavored setting needs to be more even handed, pulling from a broader range of sources, and not pretending that the culture of a billion people in the real world doesn't exist. Again, adding a disclaimer to the book is a simple and sufficient solution.

The reason people feel like they have to walk on eggshells is because people are not bringing up specific issues. No one can deal with broad, vague issues. It's not possible. We need to focus on the concrete issues where you can definitively point to this or that in the book and say, "Yes, those words right there, that sentence? That needs to change." Otherwise, it's all punching fog and frustration.

I disagree. We need to understand the principles driving the issues and proposed solutions. Only then can we stop punching fog and stop walking on eggshells. Though by all means throw out as many examples as you want as the more examples you have the more the principles become clear.

 

[Hussar]

Personally I think it is important to know our history. Good and bad.
We don't stick our head in the sand like an ostrich and stop learning about humankind's attrocities.

When ones learns about the 2nd World War one doesn't skip the importance of the Nazi party during that period because of current neo-Nazi rhetoric.

But, again, time and place.

Do we put Mein Kampf on Inspirational Reading Lists?

I'm not sure that "Inspirational Reading for D&D" is the right venue for teaching history. And, frankly, it's certainly not being used to teach history as it is because the works are being presented as a simple list without commentary.

 

[Hussar]

I disagree. We need to understand the principles driving the issues and proposed solutions. Only then can we stop punching fog and stop walking on eggshells. Though by all means throw out as many examples as you want as the more examples you have the more the principles become clear.

By the same token, @FrogReaver, you have repeatedly run into difficulties in these discussions where you are going off on some tangent that is not related to the issues at hand and then complain that you aren't sure what the problem is.

Instead of trying to understand the issues, why not simply fix the problem in front of you and move on? Otherwise, we waste so much time trying to "understand the driving principles" that we never actually resolve any issues.

 

[Imaculata]

But Heinlein isn't in Appendix E in the PHB. Lovecraft is.

Sure, but what I meant was that there are lots of authors with repulsive ideas. Should we never mention them again, and only mention derivative works?

It is true that their repugnant ideas sometimes make their way into their works in one way or another, but that doesn't mean there isn't stuff in those works worthy of reading. I don't think that mentioning Lovecraft in the PHB as a source of inspiration is a blatant approval of his racism either.

But, again, time and place.
Do we put Mein Kampf on Inspirational Reading Lists?

It is certainly an important work of literature. I don't believe it (or any book) should ever be banned, as that book did. Also, I don't think a book like Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness is equal to some sort of fascist manifesto.

 

[Aldarc]

there’s a good portion of the world and even of developed countries that view homosexuality as immoral - at least on some level.

I hope you are not hiding any personal bigotry behind an argumentum ad populum in defense of homophobic bigotry. That said, my preference is not to abandon my fellow queers in those nations by giving any credence to what bigots here or in other nations think about queer sexualities.

 

[Hussar]

Sure, but what I meant was that there are lots of authors with repulsive ideas. Should we never mention them again, and only mention derivative works?

It is true that their repugnant ideas sometimes make their way into their works in one way or another, but that doesn't mean there isn't stuff in those works worthy of reading. I don't think that mentioning Lovecraft in the PHB as a source of inspiration is a blatant approval of his racism either.



It is certainly an important work of literature. I don't believe it (or any book) should ever be banned, as that book did. Also, I don't think a book like Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness is equal to some sort of fascist manifesto.

No, but, again, Shadows of Innsmouth is pretty much on target for telling my children that they are abominations.

But, I agree actually. Some commentary in the PHB is probably a better way to go.

 

[Maxperson]

But Heinlein isn't in Appendix E in the PHB. Lovecraft is.

I just looked at the inspirational list, and now I'm wondering what it was that Terry Pratchett inspired.

 

[Sadras]

I hope you are not hiding any personal bigotry behind an argumentum ad populum in defense of homophobic bigotry.

Can we please refrain from these kinds of statements!