New GSL Announcement

[Goobermunch]

To borrow some internet lingo, this argument is made of fail.

Seriously, purely as a debating tactic, just saying "Well, X-scenario COULD potentially happen, and it's better than what you're talking about. And you don't KNOW it won't happen, so there," is both meaningless and fallacious.

This thread is to discuss, debate, and attempt to interpret the things we do know. Making stuff up and saying how that could happen does none of that.

There's absolutely no indication that Green Ronin will convert their OGL product lines to 4E, and there's certainly no way to say whether or not such hypothetical products are better or worse than the current ones that actually exist. Pointing out that such things are still possible is meaningless - there has to be at least some indication, no matter how small, that that will happen for that point to have any merit at all.

If his argument is "made of fail," so is yours. The fact is that no one on this thread has actual knowledge of the precise limitations imposed by the GSL, with the possible exceptions of Scott and Linae. Based on their comments here, I suspect that even they don't know exactly what the license prohibits.

So, while the poison pill might be "No OGL if you pursue the GSL," it might also be "No d20 STL if you pursue the GSL." It might even be "No d20 SRD if you pursue the GSL." Clark indicated that there is some kind of mutual exclusivity provision. He indicated that it was his understanding that it was no OGL if you pursue the GSL. However, until we're able to determine a) his source, and b) his source's level of familiarity with the GSL, we are speculating wildly. Really, until we see the precise language of the GSL, we won't know what it permits or doesn't permit.

Tempers in this thread are near boiling. I'm sure Mxyzplk will call me a bot because I don't agree with his unrelenting view of what second hand comments mean for the future of open gaming. Either that or he'll call me dense. Regardless, I think I'm done for the night. I hope Scott will be able to get us some useful information early tomorrow, but he's on the left coast, which means his day won't get started until well after mine.

I hope that the pessimists will remember that just because the optimists can see a different ending for the conflict doesn't mean that they're naive or stupid. I hope the optimists will remember that just because the pessimists are assuming the worst doesn't mean they might be right. I hope everyone remembers to at least try being civil.

Maybe when I wake up tomorrow all the world's governments will have declared peace, too.

--G

 

[Alzrius]

If his argument is "made of fail," so is yours.

It would help if you actually read what I wrote.

All of the things that have been discussed so far are, at least in part, based off of existing statements made by WotC or by someone in contact with WotC (e.g. Clark). Discussing the "poison pill" clause, what exactly it might or might not mean, ways to work around it, etc. are based off of that. It's speculation, yes, but it at least has some basis, in that it's working off of what we've been told.

Just saying "well, someone could release a 4E version of their existing work - even though they've given no hint at all of doing so - and it could be much better than what they've got now, ergo the poison pill is a good thing!" isn't even close to being the same. It's wishful thinking with a rationale that's both poor and fallacious.

Like I said, made of fail.

 

[subbob]

What arrogance!

That's my initial reaction - What arrogance!

And I think it could very well come back to bite Wizards (Hasbro) where it hurts.

I signed up for Gen Con events yesterday - no RPGA or WOTC events listed, but I'm certainly in all four Pathfinder Society adventures.

As much as I believe I'm not going to like 4E, I had intended on trying some Living Forgotten Realms events at Gen Con. However, none were listed yet and I have a set schedule now.

Then tonight I was reading Jason Bulmahn's blog and found out about this "4E exclusive" clause of their GSL. In his blog he referenced this thread as breaking the news.

Between their lack of (or slow) support of Gen Con this year and this arrogant GSL clause, they could very well be PUSHING folks into other 3.5 compatible systems. I know that's the direction I was already going, and this just reinforces my decision.

 

[Arrond Hess]

That's my initial reaction - What arrogance!

And I think it could very well come back to bite Wizards (Hasbro) where it hurts.

I signed up for Gen Con events yesterday - no RPGA or WOTC events listed, but I'm certainly in all four Pathfinder Society adventures.

As much as I believe I'm not going to like 4E, I had intended on trying some Living Forgotten Realms events at Gen Con. However, none were listed yet and I have a set schedule now.

Then tonight I was reading Jason Bulmahn's blog and found out about this "4E exclusive" clause of their GSL. In his blog he referenced this thread as breaking the news.

Between their lack of (or slow) support of Gen Con this year and this arrogant GSL clause, they could very well be PUSHING folks into other 3.5 compatible systems. I know that's the direction I was already going, and this just reinforces my decision.

Check out the front page of the site here... ENworld Front Page

You'll find that GEN-Conis in bankruptcy proceedings now

New at WotC
This email was forwarded to me by Latvius, in response to a question to WotC as to why there are currently no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con:

Here is a brief FAQ concerning your questions:

Q: Why are there no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con at www.gencon.com?

A: Wizards had not submitted a schedule of events by the Gen Con deadline. Since we hadn't submitted our own schedule, none of our events are in the official Gen Con schedule at this time.

Q: Will Wizards attend Gen Con in 2008?

A: As you may be aware, Gen Con is currently in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Wizards' plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans.

 

[kunadam]

The market is already fragmented enough - we've got gamers playing 1e, 2e, 3e, C&C, and other variants.

I don't see it all as a market segmentation. Those who stayed with 1st or 2nd edition probably do not buy 1st or 2nd ed material any more (albeit they are available as pdfs). They simply stay there, because they like it.
In similar veins, those who play WoD are also segmenting the market, but WoD caters for a very different style, than D&D.

I see the situation as some suit see competition everywhere, because this is what they were thaught in college. And the good folk at WotC needed to sacrifice some part of the openness in order to retain the other portion of it. This is exactly the reaseon why one should never ever let anyone with a primary education in economics or law get too close to decision making

I think Monte Cook summed the whole issue up nicely some time ago.
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_154
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_155

 

[Goobermunch]

I see the situation as some suit see competition everywhere, because this is what they were thaught in college. And the good folk at WotC needed to sacrifice some part of the openness in order to retain the other portion of it. This is exactly the reaseon why one should never ever let anyone with a primary education in economics or law get too close to decision making

You mean like Clark Peterson, aka Orcus, head of Necromancer Games, and former attorney at law?



--G

 

[Jack99]

You mean like Clark Peterson, aka Orcus, head of Necromancer Games, and former attorney at law?



--G

I am pretty sure his 6 figure income doesn't steem from Necromancer's Games.. (he is still a laywer, NG is his hobby, from what I understand)

 

[Orcus]

I am pretty sure his 6 figure income doesn't steem from Necromancer's Games.. (he is still a laywer, NG is his hobby, from what I understand)

Still a lawyer. And no, my income doesnt stem from Necro. Necro provides me money to buy more guitars, basses and amps. Its an addiction.

 

[Goobermunch]

I am pretty sure his 6 figure income doesn't steem from Necromancer's Games.. (he is still a laywer, NG is his hobby, from what I understand)

I'll gladly cop to being mistaken on that one. The impression I'd gotten was that he had been in practice but was no longer.

It just makes my point even more pointed.

--G

 

[Orcus]

To be fair, we can "blame" Clark for the hearsay, not WotC. We're not discussing things WotC has released about the license, we're discussing things that Clark says WotC people said to him about the license.

I agree. And I, more than anyone, would love them to come in and say either they didnt understand my question or I didnt understand their answer.