D&D General New Interview with Rob Heinsoo About 4E

[EzekielRaiden]

But is a great example of ruling that inhibits roleplaying as stated above. Doesn't kill it but doesn't help. Or so it was perceived, and the game failed.
For a reason that is not linked to presentation or setting.

And more importantly - why is a bad thing wether for a well placed spell, or a rogue stealing something, or the fighter crit, that an encounter is quickly solved?

Because 99% of the time, it isn't a rogue stealing something or a fighter crit that quickly resolves things. And yes, that actually is my experience with both 3e and PF1e. It was almost never my (non-full-caster) characters who solved things that way. When I did get to do those things...it was because I was playing a full spellcaster obviating the crap out of things because holy toledo 3e full spellcasters are broken.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

That's not what the Arcana skill is in 4e.

The Arcana skill is all knowledge, practice, and skills relating to arcane magic, other than, y'know, actually casting the spell itself.

This doesn't address my point, sorry.
And more importantly - we are going back to "your actual issue is specific spell mechanics".

I also ask - are there saving throws in your games? Because if a whole group of monsters fails them at once, they were not supposed to be a threat anyway.

Still waiting for an answer for illusions, polymorph, or spells like mud to stone.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The 3.x skill rules are written to be used by players looking to get specific results, not by GMs to interpret player actions. Skills aren't powerful if they aren't consistent and preemptively knowable to the player, who can them opt to make a skill to get an outcome they want.

I have never, not once, seen the 3e skills system used this way.

It is, exclusively, used in an "if it's on the list, you can do it if your check is high enough. If it's not on the list, you cannot do it. Period. Don't ask. The answer is no."

Using skills as an interpretation of player intent rather than as a discrete list of permissions granted actually allows skills to be extended into areas the designers couldn't have considered even in theory. Discrete action lists with defined DCs is a development dead end. It cannot, even in principle, cover enough things to be anything like the versatility it needs to provide.

 

[Neonchameleon]

For one, you should explain me why being a massive nerd on dragons and outsiders makes me better at diplomacy thanks to this spell. Explain me what happens in universe, please.

You use your knowledge of magic to lace your words with magical power. It's a Suggestion spell.

 

[Minigiant]

For one, you should explain me why being a massive nerd on dragons and outsiders makes me better at diplomacy thanks to this spell. Explain me what happens in universe, please.

Arcana is also knowledge of arcane magic.

"Arcana for a Diplomacy check" Suggestion spell is knowing how to boost the base Suggestion spell. The more knowledgeable you are about Arcane magic, the stronger the spell.

You use Mabobi's Number and Kozbex's Law to boost the Enchantment Coefficient.

This goes back to the "consequences of honesty" issue.

If D&D was honest about what each skill can do instead of hoping you all infer the meaning and sus it out, then you can use it better.

It's like the useless 5e Medicine skill. It's useless because no one agrees what you can do with it and how difficult it is. Everyone agrees on the healing magic because it's told to us and is honest about it

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This doesn't address my point, sorry.

Then I have no idea what you're asking about. An Arcana check in 4e can rewrite a ward, enspell a token, bind a spirit, or do any number of other things that would have absolutely required an actual slotted spell in 3e. 4e Arcana IS "do a magic thing."

 

[Oofta]

...

whatever

I have ignored these comments for a reason. They are a game, not the actual book rules. I refuse to use Solasta (or BG3) to discuss actual 5e. The two are different.

Unlike BG3, Solasta is a faithful implementation of the rules. They are limited to the core rules but the custom subclasses and feats they added are pretty close. But, of course it's just another thing that doesn't fit your narrative to it can simply be ignored. Have a good one.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Then I have no idea what you're asking about. An Arcana check in 4e can rewrite a ward, enspell a token, bind a spirit, or do any number of other things that would have absolutely required an actual spell in 3e.

How can an arcana skill be used for diplomacy. I ask again - what happens in universe.
Because what minigiant said is not an answer BTW. If that was the case, the high skill would have boosted the hit, or nerfed a save, or whatever depending on the edition.
Also why Arcana makes the suggestion better, but no other spells? If Arcana was directly related to spell power, shouldn't be used to hit with spells in general?
What happens in universe guys? I am very confused. It almost sounds... not associated or something.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

How can an arcana skill be used for diplomacy. I ask again - what happens in universe.

You are literally performing magic. How else? You are invoking arcane power to achieve an end. It's not in a neat package, you're improvising magic to do the job. It might fail. Or it might not. Depends on how good you are, how well you know magical theory, how clever you are...in other words, literally using the skills and knowledge associated with being trained in the arcane arts. Which is what Arcana Training is.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

You are literally performing magic. How else? You are invoking arcane power to achieve an end. It's not in a neat package, you're improvising magic to do the job. It might fail. Or it might not. Depends on how good you are, how well you know magical theory, how clever you are...in other words, literally using the skills and knowledge associated with being trained in the arcane arts. Which is what Arcana Training is.

But being a nerd and being socially skilled don't always go together. If it's just an improvement of the MAGIC related to it, why Arcana doesn't boost to hit with spells?