New Magic Item Cost

[der_kluge]

And just for the record, the rules in the Artificer's Handbook cost many things out *higher* than the costs given in the DMG. Take the Chaos Diamond, for example.

The 3.0 cost for a Chaos Diamond, in the DMG the market cost is 93,000gp. The AH cost for this item is 177,660 (market cost) - a full 84,000gp higher.

In 3.5 item, the Chaos Diamond's cost increased to 160,000gp. Apparently, someone at WoTC realized their mistake, a mistake our rules had already clearly identified. Even with their increase of 67,000gp, they are still 17,000gp behind the costs outlined in the Artificer's Handbook.

So no, the costs in AH are not arbitrarily low. They are based on precise formulas.

 

[James McMurray]

If it cost him 500,000gp to make, and he sold it for 1,000,000gp then he has earned 500,000gp. How is that not a profit?

With the ELH the gp limit on a Metropolis is 300,000gp, and a Planar Metropolis is 600,000gp. The city of Union has a month long annual trade festival that ups that to 1,000,000gp (hmmm, that looks like a familiar sum ).

Saying "in a low magic setting" is a bit silly don't you think? Who is going to be making epic items in a low magic setting?

Saying "epic level cities aside" is also a bit silly. Its been stated that an epic level city is what is being used here. Sure, none of the cities in Greyhawk may be able to afford the thing, but we're not dealing with Greyhawk here.

This cleric should be ashamed of himself for even possessing a million gold coins. Think of all the needy peasants and starving children that could be fed with that money

Who said it was a good cleric? Maybe its an evil cleric looking to raise money, or a neutral cleric fulfilling the ethos of his god of creation and trade?

Consider the cost of the Pearl of Power. This item is essentially a bunch of pearls of power rolled into one. 5 9th level pearls, 3 6th level pearls, and 3 4th level pearls. The cost of that is 405k + 108k + 48k = 561,000gp. That doesn't include the cost of the divine favor. Which, even at 9 castings per day is only an additional 9,000gp, for a total of 570kgp.

Huh??? Pearls of power are a) not free actions, and b) not limited in what effets they can allow you to regain. The item above is both more and less powerful than a bunch of pearls of power.

So, even the cost of 1,000,000gp is WAY high, even following the normal PHB method

Only if you try to compare the item to other items that bear no comparison. Even if you want to use pearls as the basis you'll have to increase the level of all of those pearls by 4 because they grant quickened abilities.

So no, the costs in AH are not arbitrarily low. They are based on precise formulas.

Then hpefully thos links will get posted and I'll be able to get a better understanding of the book. But it seems to me like its system is likely to fall apart at epic levels.

You say that the slots aren't possible. Just looking at the 9th level slots (10 right?).

Base: 4 + 1 domain = 5
Wisdom of 44: 5 bonus 9th level slots.

There you have it, 10 slots.

Perhaps if you redid your calculations basing the slots as 4 higher for the quicken spell that might get results I'd be better able to agree with.

 

[BSF]

Redoing the spell slots is not a problem. Add 4 to the spell slot levels. Quite a few of which will only be attainable by Epic level characters. My Artificer's Handbook is in the other room and I am lazy right now. I will extrapolate what the spell slot use will be.

Mass Heal: 10 - 13th level spell slots
Greater Dispel Magic: 11 - 10th level spell slots
Restoration: 12 - 8th level spell slots
Divine Favor: 19 - 5th level spell slots (Though, since it is a personal spell, it should probably be 23 - 5th level spell slots.

Domain spell slots would really only be applicable if you had those spells available in your domain. The spells must be cast each day that the item is created. In this case, a cleric trying to make this solo is going to have to have access to all those spell slots every day.

In this case, I would expect that the cleric would memorize a quickened Divine Favor in 5th, 6th, and 7th level slots, a quickened Restoration in 8th and 9th level slots, a Greater Dispel Magic in 10th, 11th, and 12th level slots and a Quickened Mass Heal in 13th+ level slots. So, this cleric will have also spent feats bumping up his max spell level

More likely, this would be a small group of Epic level clerics working together to create an Epic level item.

OK, time to stop being lazy. Let me see what the eyeball on the time period to create it will be.

Mass Heal = 380 hours
Greater Dispel Magic = 330 Hours
Restoration = 180 hours
Divine Favor = 361 hours
Total of 1251 hours or 157 days (at 8 hours a day)

That is a sizable investment of time. There are no explicit extensions to the Artificer's Handbook to handle Epic level items. It is easy to extrapolate them (as I have done), but the inclusion of a few feats to bring down the time constraints would be nice. After all, by the ELH, this item will probably only take 100 days to create at a 1,000,000 gp Market Value.

I won't comment on the likelihood of a given cleric taking the time to create this item for resale because that is entirely game oriented. Whatever rationale works best for your game is what you should use. The same goes for item creation rules. In my case, I think the Artificer's Handbook gives me different options than I would have looked at otherwise and I am pleased with the results.

Threads to check out. (A search turns up 42 threads with Artificers in the content. I will post the 2 relelvant ones I remember posting in. ) I think we are probably starting to get off topic, so I would suggest that if we want to continue the discussion, we should make a new topic and be a bit more general. This is a cool item and somebody else might want to scope it out later without having to wade into a discussion on the item creation rules.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60888
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63558

 

[Felikeries]

or 'bracelt of healing' 7hp a melee 10 hp a round real time x20

1D20 + 10 rounds

700gpx20=14,100gp that's more money than can be thrown about

'clerics' only

300,000 for a shirt with that much ability,i hate to think what a mass battle might do to the enemy

then x2 at temples,shrines or churches yeah that's fair

but then create item has it's merits in the DM set campaign,and the information found characters with this are too chumpy and can throw around too much weight

 

[shilsen]

or 'bracelt of healing' 7hp a melee 10 hp a round real time x20

1D20 + 10 rounds

700gpx20=14,100gp that's more money than can be thrown about

'clerics' only

300,000 for a shirt with that much ability,i hate to think what a mass battle might do to the enemy

then x2 at temples,shrines or churches yeah that's fair

but then create item has it's merits in the DM set campaign,and the information found characters with this are too chumpy and can throw around too much weight

Wha-?

 

[Anabstercorian]

And just for the record, the rules in the Artificer's Handbook cost many things out *higher* than the costs given in the DMG. Take the Chaos Diamond, for example.

The 3.0 cost for a Chaos Diamond, in the DMG the market cost is 93,000gp. The AH cost for this item is 177,660 (market cost) - a full 84,000gp higher.

In 3.5 item, the Chaos Diamond's cost increased to 160,000gp. Apparently, someone at WoTC realized their mistake, a mistake our rules had already clearly identified. Even with their increase of 67,000gp, they are still 17,000gp behind the costs outlined in the Artificer's Handbook.

So no, the costs in AH are not arbitrarily low. They are based on precise formulas.

Not arbitrarily, but at this point, you have to realize something - The Market Price of an item isn't just it's market price, but an objective measure of it's power. Let's compare the two items.

Shroud of the Phoenix (what I'm calling the item we have here)
- Mass Heal 3 times per day (caster level 25) as a free action (Spell level 13)
- Restoration 3 times per day (caster level 7) as a free action (Spell level 9, roughly)
- Dispel Magic Greater 3 times per day (Caster level 20) as a free action (Spell level 10)
- Divine Favor 9 times per day (caster level 18) as a free action (Spell level 5)

Costs 142,630 gp.

Chaos Diamond:

- Confusion, lesser 2.5 times per day (Caster level 19, 1st level spell)
- Magic circle against law 2.5 times per day (Caster level 19, 3rd level spell)
- Word of chaos 2.5 times per day (Caster level 19, 7th level spell)
- Cloak of chaos 2.5 times per day (Caster level 19, 8th level spell)

A nonchaotic character who possesses a chaos diamond gains one negative level. Although this level never results in actual level loss, it remains as long as the diamond is in the character’s possession and cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells).

Costs 177,660. (If it took up a slot like the Shroud does, it would cost 88,830 gp.)

I think we can look between the two and see that the Shroud is easily twice as powerful, if not more so, than the chaos diamond. Something funky is up with your pricing scheme, die kluge. It just doesn't work on the same basis as the DMG - That is, it doesn't use the value of an item as an objective measure of its power.

 

[der_kluge]

Chaos diamond has a 5th ability - the negative level, which the creator has to pay to put into the item. It doesn't come freely. Also, the cost I listed was the creation cost. The market cost for the shroud as I calculated it would be 280,000gp. A full 110,000 more than the cost of a chaos diamond.

I still stand by the cost of 280,000gp for that shroud. It's still a huge sum of money by any stretch of the imagination. More than the cost of anything listed in the DMG.

I don't own ELH, and have no desire to do so, but tell me, are there are any magic items in that book that have a cost of 1,000,000 gold pieces? The most expensive thing I can find is 211,000 for a staff of power in the DMG (which seems grossly overpriced to me, but that's a topic for another debate).

 

[BSF]

Costs of 1,000,000 and over are common in the Epic Level Handbook. Heck, the costs get so outrageous that they created a Feat called Efficient Item creation that allows you to create an item at 10,000 gp/day instead of the base 1,000 gp/day.

For the above item, the cleric in question would need to have Craft Wondrous Item, 26 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) & Spellcraft, and Craft Epic Wondrous Item. If the cleric also took Efficient Item Creation for Craft Epic Wondrous Item, then he could make it in 1/10 the time. Or down to 100 days instead of 1000 days.

The stuff in the Epic Level Handbook scales on a whole new level. It is kind of interesting. There are certain things they had to rewrite for Epic play. I'm glad they dropped it into the SRD so there is a chance that a 3rd party can try to do something with it (I don't have the feeling that WotC will ever fully embrace it.), but I am also really looking forward to Upper_Krust's Immortals Handbook to someday be released to see if there is a better option than the scaling that WotC did for the ELH.

 

[James McMurray]

Redoing the spell slots is not a problem. Add 4 to the spell slot levels.

Any idea what that changes the cost to?

Thanks for the links!

 

[James McMurray]

I still stand by the cost of 280,000gp for that shroud. It's still a huge sum of money by any stretch of the imagination. More than the cost of anything listed in the DMG.

It also does a tone more than any item in the DMG. Shouldn't it therefore cost a lot more?