New Magic Item Cost

[Trainz]

I would like to thank everybody for their contribution on this item. Here is the final form that one of my player's currently owns and use:

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Holy Shirt of Farlanghn
This religious shirt is deep green and adorned with gold embroidery of Farlanghn's holy markings. It's magic can only be activated by a cleric of Farlanghn. Once per round, it allows the wearer to activate the following spells as a free action:
- Mass Heal 5 times per day (caster level 25)
- Restoration 3 times per day (caster level 7)
- Dispel Magic Greater 3 times per day (Caster level 20)
- Divine Favor always active (caster level 18)
Other Holy and Unholy Vestments are known to exist for clerics of different gods.
Strong conjuration; CL 25th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Mass heal, Restoration, Greater dispel magic, Divine Favor. Cost: 1,000,000 g.p.
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For those thinking that the cost is too much, you might be right, but my player didn't think so. (it's a solo epic game).

He was in Union (ELH), and when that item was offered to him at a cost of 1,000,000 g.p., he just handed out the cash and said "gimme !". After that he was very poor, but grinning. He can now tackle epic dungeons all by himself for good (we've been playing his character since level 13, and he is now 33rd level). Couple that with the Fast Healing 3 epic feat he got, and he's quite set.

Today he tackled a CR 35 fire elemental from the ELH, and the Divine Favor and Mass Heals weren't too much.

 

[James McMurray]

Using the Spell Slot System from Artificer's Handbook:

<snip>

Total:
33,000 + 30,250 + 14,400 + 64,980 = 142,630gp (creation cost)

Mental note: do not buy Artificer's Handbook. Seriously, any system that can allow the purchase of this tem for less than the price of an amulet of Mighty Fists +5 or an Efreeti bottle should seriously reconsider its pricing scheme.

It may require a lot of 9th level spell slots, but since casters can combine their efforts to create an item, that just means you need two casters, or one caster with an epi spell that boosts his wisdom out the wazoo (ten slots is hard, but not impossible to get).

 

[BSF]

Heh - That is, of course, your call. Personally, I dislike that the economics of my game is driven by the magic items that must be purchased to maintain parity with increasing Challenge Ratings. Once I decided to break one of those dependencies, I started looking for alternatives for the rest. Now, I can toss a huge monetary award at my players at lower levels if I want to. Even with item creation feats, they won't have the capability to create a Girdle of Giant Strength +6 until they can have access to 7th level spells. They can combine efforts, but that requires another feat expenditure. For me, using the Artificer's Handbook creates and environment in which my magic item "ecology" makes more sense.

But, the book certainly will not appeal to everyone's tastes.

 

[der_kluge]

Mental note: do not buy Artificer's Handbook. Seriously, any system that can allow the purchase of this tem for less than the price of an amulet of Mighty Fists +5 or an Efreeti bottle should seriously reconsider its pricing scheme.

It may require a lot of 9th level spell slots, but since casters can combine their efforts to create an item, that just means you need two casters, or one caster with an epi spell that boosts his wisdom out the wazoo (ten slots is hard, but not impossible to get).

Let me ask you one thing - do you have any idea how much 1,000,000 gold coins weighs? I'll give you a hint - 100,000gp weighs 1 ton.

Second of all, if you were to create this item, and the DM said "it will cost 500,000gp to create" (half the market cost), where would that money go? Who gets that money? What is it used for? Have you, in fact, ever even thought about that? It's ridiculous to think that you can just plunk down 500kgp or just mark it off your character sheet, go in a hole, and come out with an item like that. It's absurd to the nth degree.

While you may not agree with the cost, you have to at least agree that the current set of economics in 3rd edition make absolutely no sense when it comes to magic items.

 

[der_kluge]

It may require a lot of 9th level spell slots, but since casters can combine their efforts to create an item, that just means you need two casters, or one caster with an epi spell that boosts his wisdom out the wazoo (ten slots is hard, but not impossible to get).

One other thing - you might be able to do this if you had more than one caster, but how many 25th+ level clerics are walking around the world? Of those clerics, how many bothered taking item creations feats? Of those that did, how many bothered to take the Ritual Creation feat (a feat that allows more than one person to create items)? I would wager that the answer is very, very few.

 

[James McMurray]

Let me ask you one thing - do you have any idea how much 1,000,000 gold coins weighs? I'll give you a hint - 100,000gp weighs 1 ton.

Who cares how much they weigh? Payment won't necessarily be in just gold coins, it could also be in artwork, gems, and other magic items. If it is paid in coin, platinum would weigh 1/10th as much, and you can fit a lot of coins into a portable hole. If you're buying 1,000,000gp items, you should be able to afford a portable hole or two.

Second of all, if you were to create this item, and the DM said "it will cost 500,000gp to create" (half the market cost), where would that money go? Who gets that money? What is it used for? Have you, in fact, ever even thought about that? It's ridiculous to think that you can just plunk down 500kgp or just mark it off your character sheet, go in a hole, and come out with an item like that. It's absurd to the nth degree.

Have you ever thought about it? I'd guess you haven't, or you wouldn't have to ask that question.

The money would go to various magical supplies retailers to purchase such sundries as elephant gizzards, cat's breath, and the artifact destroying feet of humble ants. Nobody ever said you could just mark it off your sheet and jump in a hole to create an item. You're right, that interpretation is rediculous, but its also only the simplest of all possible interpretations.

While you may not agree with the cost, you have to at least agree that the current set of economics in 3rd edition make absolutely no sense when it comes to magic items.

I don't have to agree in the slightest, and your assertion that I do is just a bit arrogant, don't you think? I think the economic system works just fine. It does what its supposed to do: provides a balanced system for item creation for use within an adventure game.

One other thing - you might be able to do this if you had more than one caster, but how many 25th+ level clerics are walking around the world? Of those clerics, how many bothered taking item creations feats? Of those that did, how many bothered to take the Ritual Creation feat (a feat that allows more than one person to create items)? I would wager that the answer is very, very few.

In the city of Union there are probably quite a few. A city where the gaurds are 14+ level, the higher ups in various churches and guildhalls will be much higher.

And there is no such thing as the Ritual Creation feat (at least not in the core books, its a built in function of item creation). Given how useful the item creation feats are, I'd say that almost everysingle epic level cleric has Craft Wondrous Item, and many would also have Craft Epic Wondrous Item.

If the ruleset is such that you need Ritual Creation to combine efforts, but combining efforts lets you get ungodly items for dirt cheap (i.e. the above item for <150k) then every single epic spellcaster with an epic spellcasting friend should have Ritual Creation. It just wouldn't make sense (from a personal power perspective) not to get it.

 

[Trainz]

I have to agree with James McMurray (not his tone, but his ideas).

If you look up the magic items in ELH, 1,000,000 is common. Of course, you don't carry around 1,000,000 coins, there is an epic monetary system, favors, where a single piece of parchment is worth 100,000 g.p. (f100).

If you're not comfortable with that, than the Epic Level Handbook is definitely not for you. I did specify in the first post to not be afraid about big digits, that it was for an epic game.

BTW, I love epic gaming. I have been dreading the degree of complexity, but I am now quite comfortable with it. It's fun for the PC's to be in earth-shattering battles. A blast.

 

[BSF]

The artificer's Handbook is a completely different method of magic item creation, not just a different way to juggle the numbers to your benefit. I would also hazard a guess that die_kluge has put a great deal of thought into where all of that goes. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have written the book to begin with. As far as arguing about the validity of the book and how it functions, there are already a few threads on EN World about it. Do a search, or I can post up the links later tonight if you _really_ want to read them.

I am not afraid of high-powered games to any degree. Nor do I pass any judgement on how everyone else wants to play their games. In my initial posts on this thread, I avoided posting the Artificer's Handbook stats because I was in a hurry and wouldn't do it any justice, I was trying to be representative of the costs of the item based on using the quicken spell feat as a ballpark to get the "as a free action", and I figured die_kluge would eventually stop by with his thoughts on it.

 

[James McMurray]

I thought perhaps he'd written it, given his defence of it in the face of some obvious oddities. But hey, I've never read it, so I can't fully discuss it. I just know that I wouldn't want to use the system if its as over-powered as it seems. An epic item for 150k just makes me giggle. But perhaps the system works great in the pre-epic levels.

I don't have access to the search functionity, but I'd be happy to check those threads out if you wouldn't mind posting them.

 

[der_kluge]

All I'm saying, James, is that to purchase *anything* for 1,000,000 gold coins borders on absurdity. Even if said thing is paid for with tracts of land, art, or whatever, the sheer difficulty in having someone acquire all the necessary ingredients only to *just* sell it is moronic. I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the system.

What 25th level cleric would go out, spend a year of his life acquiring hard to find components and ingredients, and whatnot, spend the months of devoted research and artisanship to make such a thing, and then turn around and sell it? Would it be for profit? That's ludicrous since he's already theoretically invested 500,000 gold coins in the creation of the item - either by purchasing the components outright, or utilizing his own resources to defeat the creatures necessary to give him the needed components.

The GP limit on a Metropolis is 100,000gp. To have *anything* be worth 1,000,000 is akin to purchasing something in our world (by an individual) at a value of something equivalent to our national debt. No one has that kind of money. My cost of 140kgp (creation cost, 284kgp market cost) is already more than a Metropolis can support, and in a low magic setting, it might be more than the entire economy of the planet!

The item is not uber powerful, the GM himself stated as such. All it really does is give him a few extra spell slots per day - not game breaking stuff. As a player, no way in Hades would I pay a million gold coins for it, and no way in reality should a PC even have that much money. It's just borders on the ridiculous. Epic level cities aside, bringing that much wealth into an economy is just going to devestate it. D&D gets absurdly stupid at high levels for this very reason. Treasure acquired by PCs needs to be sloping curve that does not correspond to level. As it is, it's a straight, diagonal line that reaches further and further upwards into the stratosphere.

This cleric should be ashamed of himself for even possessing a million gold coins. Think of all the needy peasants and starving children that could be fed with that money. The GM, IMHO, needs to rethink the economy of his world to bring it back into reality.

The Artificer's Handbook has a more reasonable, yet scalable approach to the costs of the magic item creation. Like Bard stated, the limiting factor of these rules isn't the *cost*, because as is so easily demonstrated, high level PCs just have so much of it. A 33rd level cleric isn't going to balk at the price of anything. The limiting factor is the number of spell slots, which according to my estimation is unobtainable by this PC. No way would I allow a PC to purchase this item, for the simple fact that it would take far too much to actually create it. That, if said item were actually created, it would be gifted to someone worthy, to perform a great service. It would never just be *sold* on the open market.

Yes, I have done a lot of thinking about the economies of D&D. My conclusion is that they make no sense.

Consider the cost of the Pearl of Power. This item is essentially a bunch of pearls of power rolled into one. 5 9th level pearls, 3 6th level pearls, and 3 4th level pearls. The cost of that is 405k + 108k + 48k = 561,000gp. That doesn't include the cost of the divine favor. Which, even at 9 castings per day is only an additional 9,000gp, for a total of 570kgp.

So, even the cost of 1,000,000gp is WAY high, even following the normal PHB method.