New Mindflayer Info

[Mentat55]

I don't like it because it means that at some point (after a few splatbooks, or maybe even in core) there will be characters which are fighting better while bloodied and instead of always healing themselves up after resting they instead only heal up till the reach 50% of their HP (or 50HP+1) and might even go so far to damage themselves to get into the bloodied condition as this unlocks powerful abilities.

Hasn't it also been mentioned that certain attacks/powers only affect creatures that are bloodied? So while being bloodied might open up options to a character, it would also make them vulnerable to special attacks, not to mention being that much closer to dying.

Ah, here we go. Granted, it is an example from the new DDM rules, but it gives at least a suggestion of a special attack that gets benefits against a bloodied opponent:

Killing Blow: +9 vs AC, +5 Attack if target is Bloodied; 30 Damage

 

[Derren]

Its a tradeoff, but I guess Minmaxers will find combos wich are powerful enough to warrant this disadvantage.

 

[Plane Sailing]

That reminds me of something. Isn't one of the design philosophy of 4E not (among other things) to avoid situations where players are "robbed of their characters" during combat so that they just have to sit and watch?
Having a dominate ability seems to go against that philosophy.

If the dominated PC is told to "slay all the other heroes" then he's not sitting and watching, he is actively involved and rolling dice and all

Being dominated still gives lots of fun as long as the dominatee doesn't just say "stand still" - and why would they?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If the dominated PC is told to "slay all the other heroes" then he's not sitting and watching, he is actively involved and rolling dice and all

Being dominated still gives lots of fun as long as the dominatee doesn't just say "stand still" - and why would they?

Dominate Person is a lot more fun then "Charm". (Unfortunately, it's also an incredibly powerful ability - it's a Flesh to Stone combined with a Summon Monster spell, though only for a limited duration)

Its a tradeoff, but I guess Minmaxers will find combos wich are powerful enough to warrant this disadvantage.

It's the responsibility of the designers and developers of later source books to ensure that such things don't happen. Next thing you're telling me that there shouldn't be feats in the game, because someone might create a combo of feats that becomes overpowered!

 

[Dausuul]

Its a tradeoff, but I guess Minmaxers will find combos wich are powerful enough to warrant this disadvantage.

The danger does exist, and I admit to having some concern as well. On the other hand, when you get right down to it, would it be such a bad thing?

Say there's some kind of "barbarian rage"-type ability that triggers when you hit that threshold. Pain and injury send you into a crazed fury and you carve through your foes. And say a clever player finds ways to twink that ability so it's actually worth damaging yourself to trigger it.

What you end up with is a berserker who gashes open his own flesh before battle to work himself into a killing frenzy. After the fight, when the healer comes to tend his wounds, this ferocious brute accepts only the minimum patching up necessary to keep him from bleeding to death. He wants the pain so he can keep his fighting edge.

The concept actually makes sense when you think about it. If the combo is powerful enough that everybody does this, that's a problem, but if it's just one guy in a party of four or five, I think it's fine. In fact, I could imagine a "Frenzied Berserker" paragon path that actively embraces the idea. Maybe you have the special ability to spend a minor action and stab yourself; your hit points immediately drop to the top end of the Bloodied range, triggering all relevant abilities.

 

[jaer]

If the dominated PC is told to "slay all the other heroes" then he's not sitting and watching, he is actively involved and rolling dice and all

Being dominated still gives lots of fun as long as the dominatee doesn't just say "stand still" - and why would they?

Agreed. I took it that they were removing things like paralysis ("I'm held fast for 10 rounds? I'm gonna go play Guitar Hero...call me when the fight is over.") which just weren't fun. I have never, however, taken a player's character and played them as an NPC when that character was dominated. It's more fun to watch them kill each other: had a confusion nearly TPK the group last month...the monster was already gone and they spent several rounds slaughtering each other! Fortunately, the right one lived to save everyone.

As for Suggestion being powerful in combat, it is a matter of creativity. I like to think of it as similar to wait a hypnotist can do or suggest but with a little more potency. Remember that it is a magic compulsion to do that which is suggested: fail the will save, do what is stated; that can be very powerful.

I have had plans on running an enchanter who never Suggested the same thing twice, so I've been building up some ideas. "You are contempuous of our abilities to fight you. You will not demean yourself by using weapons against us." That opponent fights unarmed; unless they happen to be trained in unarmed combat, that was an AoO every time they attacked and much, much reduced damage.

"Your armor is heavy and uncomfortable; you cannot fight effectively in it. Take it off." I believe the rules for taking off full plate have it require several minutes and you provoke AoO every round from anyone in range.

Not all DMs would allow such things, but if your DM rewards creativity (and I certainly do when I DM), then Suggestion is one of the ultimate spells, limited only by the players ability to word something so it sounds reasonable. "I can't fight in this armor, therefore I need to take it off" is a reasonable logic leap IMO, even if it is not a typical logic leap or one a character would have (being that they often wear that armor and fight - why is it uncofortable now?). But that's what makes it magic.

 

[shilsen]

Let this be the 4E motto: "Prolonged suffering instead of swift death!"

That's my motto as a DM, which is one of the reasons I'm liking a lot of the 4e stuff thus far.

 

[Dausuul]

Not all DMs would allow such things, but if your DM rewards creativity (and I certainly do when I DM), then Suggestion is one of the ultimate spells, limited only by the players ability to word something so it sounds reasonable. "I can't fight in this armor, therefore I need to take it off" is a reasonable logic leap IMO, even if it is not a typical logic leap or one a character would have (being that they often wear that armor and fight - why is it uncofortable now?). But that's what makes it magic.

That's my problem with suggestion. It's one thing to have a spell that can sometimes reward a clever player, but suggestion as written is far too easy to abuse. In a world where magic works, I can come up with a plausible-sounding suggestion to make an NPC do pretty much anything. Kill your one true love? Easy:

The thing that looks like your one true love is actually a demon that's taken her shape and is draining her life essence. Kill it before it sucks the last of her life away!

 

[jaer]

That's my problem with suggestion. It's one thing to have a spell that can sometimes reward a clever player, but suggestion as written is far too easy to abuse. In a world where magic works, I can come up with a plausible-sounding suggestion to make an NPC do pretty much anything. Kill your one true love? Easy:

The thing that looks like your one true love is actually a demon that's taken her shape and is draining her life essence. Kill it before it sucks the last of her life away!

It is useful for abuse, too. I like to reward creativity, but I do try to balance such things. Such a case as this, I would either apply a modifier to the save or require a second save of the like, or even requiring two applications of suggestion in this case: one to suggest the demon look-alike, the other to kill the look alike.

Hypocritcal of me? Perhaps, but I also dislike making a "kill" suggestion since hypnotises people will break free of such suggestions before killing someone.

I would not allow the "don't use a weapon when fighting us" suggest to work some small, weak creature. The arrogant orc chief, yes. He wants to show just how powerful he is. After he is getting his butt kicked , the suggestion is no longer reasonable. He might be contemptuous still, but he realizes after a couple rounds he cannot cannot continue this way: I'd either give him a resave or have him break it completely (depending on the beating he just took).

Same for the armor-removal. If the person took a hit while he was removing his armor, he would realize that doing so is unreasonable. I would allow him a resave on the effect, and if he didn't make the save, perhaps let him continue to fight in the armor but with some negatives for the discomfort it is creating for him (basically counting him as unproficient in that armor type). Depending on how much time he spent taking off the armor, he might have reduced AC (whether he shook off the suggestion or not).

It might not be RAW, but when it comes to abstract and very abusal spells like Suggestion (truely could be one of the most powerful spells if not handle carefully!), I take matters into my own hands. I don't want to say "Wow! Awesome suggestion there...great work wording that. Yeah, that can't happen though; too potent. But great job!"

I want to reward my players, so if I need to do things like add resaves and partially successful suggestions to keep it fair and balanced, I do it.

Not that I typically have these problems. My players aren't quite so creative; they tend to think Suggestion sucks (too open, and they don't want to think about what they can get it to do). Which is why I would save my wicked Suggestions for when I was a player, so I don't completely wreck the PCs with the BBEG enchanter. Though, looks like my Enchanter/Mindbender won't be playable in 4e, not until psions come out...but I can wait.

 

[Raloc]

Personally, I like the changes to the illithid. To me, it seems like they were always just a little too powerful when used to full potential. Now it seems like they're about right for having a main encounter comprised of them and some minions/thralls.