D&D (2024) New One D&D Playtest Shows Us The New Druid & Paladin

WotC has released the fourth One D&D playtest document. This 29-page PDF includes the druid and the paladin with Circle of the Moon and Oath of Devotion subclasses. Druid. The Druid class and Circle of the Moon subclass are ready for playtesting here. Paladin. The Paladin class and Oath of Devotion subclass are ready for playtesting here. Feats. Several revised feats appear here for your...

WotC has released the fourth One D&D playtest document. This 29-page PDF includes the druid and the paladin with Circle of the Moon and Oath of Devotion subclasses.

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Druid. The Druid class and Circle of the Moon subclass are ready for playtesting here.

Paladin. The Paladin class and Oath of Devotion subclass are ready for playtesting here.

Feats. Several revised feats appear here for your feedback, with more revised feats coming in future articles.

Spells. More spells are ready for playtesting, with a focus on smite spells, Find Familiar, and Find Steed.

Rules Glossary. The rules glossary has been updated again and supersedes the glossary in previous Unearthed Arcana articles. In this document, any underlined term in the body text appears in that glossary, which defines game terms that have been clarified or redefined for this playtest or that don’t appear in the 2014 Player’s Handbook.

 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I have played every edition over 33 years with all sorts of group compositions

Congratulations, here is your trophy

(our wizard is multiclassed, just in case you had overlooked how those rules work - hyperbolic statements rarely carry much weight).

Ah yes, I completely overlooked the information you didn't provide. My point remains unchanged. If you had a wizard capable of casting 7th level spells, Planeshift would likely not remain your go to answer for overland travel. Whether it is because you have a wizard who multiclassed into barbarian or because you have a wizard who is lower level than the party doesn't matter. It still reads to me like you didn't choose to use Plane Shift as a solution because it was the best solution, but because it was the only solution you had.

Over the years the game has evolved so that having particular group composition isn't required for play. Different ways to reach similar results are fun.

Yes, and? This still does not counteract my point. My point was not that you need a specific group composition to play, my point was that your story was not "Plane Shift is an amazing spell, and we use it for its intended purpose all the time" it was "Plane Shift fills a gap we have no other way to effectively fill, because we don't have access to those options". Which is fine, it works for that, but that isn't how it is supposed to be used, that isn't the intent of the spell.

Out of interest, do you find Phantom Steed any use for overland group travel? It only lasts an hour in 5e. It was always a thematic way for my shadow mage to travel in previous editions but it feels a pain to have to re-cast it all the time in 5e. Impractical as a ritual and too resource heavy to benefit a whole group?

I had a group that had their wizard ritual cast it and completely destroy overland travel for that campaign. It isn't impractical as a ritual at all, which is why I suggested it.
 

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Pauln6

Hero
Congratulations, here is your trophy



Ah yes, I completely overlooked the information you didn't provide. My point remains unchanged. If you had a wizard capable of casting 7th level spells, Planeshift would likely not remain your go to answer for overland travel. Whether it is because you have a wizard who multiclassed into barbarian or because you have a wizard who is lower level than the party doesn't matter. It still reads to me like you didn't choose to use Plane Shift as a solution because it was the best solution, but because it was the only solution you had.



Yes, and? This still does not counteract my point. My point was not that you need a specific group composition to play, my point was that your story was not "Plane Shift is an amazing spell, and we use it for its intended purpose all the time" it was "Plane Shift fills a gap we have no other way to effectively fill, because we don't have access to those options". Which is fine, it works for that, but that isn't how it is supposed to be used, that isn't the intent of the spell.



I had a group that had their wizard ritual cast it and completely destroy overland travel for that campaign. It isn't impractical as a ritual at all, which is why I suggested it.
No, you didn't overlook information, you just made an erroneous assumption. We actually have about a dozen warlocks and multiclass warlocks in our campaign but only 2 multi-class wizards. In fact, the cleric with Plane Shift is the only high level single-classed caster. Understandng other people's perspectives, makes for a more collaborative campaign. Just because my players don't play the game the same way that you and your players do doesn't mean they're playing it wrong.

Dungeons and Dragons took its inspiration from fairy stories, fables, religious tales, science fiction, and classic horror stories/movies. Plane Shift wasn't added to the game for a specific mechanical purpose, it was introduced because it had literary pedigree. You may not see any mechanical need for it, but that pedigree remains for a lot of us. Watch a movie like Constantine and you can see how Plane Shifting can serve an interesting story. Teleporting is much more vanilla.

Please explain the trick for utilising Phantom Steed! It feels rubblish now and I miss it. The spell lasts an hour and states "For the duration, you OR a creature you choose can ride the steed." So the mounts can only take one rider. If trying to create mounts for the group, for 4 people, you would spend 40 minutes casting rituals for 20 minutes of riding. That doesn't sound viable at all. For 8 hours travel using spell slots, you would need a whopping 32 spells. Any advice is welcome!
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
No, you didn't overlook information, you just made an erroneous assumption. We actually have about a dozen warlocks and multiclass warlocks in our campaign but only 2 multi-class wizards. In fact, the cleric with Plane Shift is the only high level single-classed caster. Understandng other people's perspectives, makes for a more collaborative campaign. Just because my players don't play the game the same way that you and your players do doesn't mean they're playing it wrong.

Point to me where I said you were playing the game wrong? Seriously dude, stop martyring yourself for a moment and listen. You presented me with the information that your group had a cleric who could cast 7th level spells, and a wizard who maxed at 5th. That, on the face of it, doesn't make sense because Clerics and Wizards have the same spell progression. If you played the game the exact same way I did, that wouldn't make sense. So, I assumed you played the game in a different way. You mentioned you were in Greyhawk, so perhaps you liked an older style of game. Players and DMs on this forum, who play differently than I do, have parties with varying class levels, because they like that style of game, and it seems more prominent among older gamers.

So, the thing I did wrong here, according to you, is assume that you didn't play the game the same way I did, and dare, DARE suggest that perhaps your group being non-standard is the reason you are using Plane Shift in the way you are.

Now, if you want to continue scourging yourself over the audacity I had to assume your group might be unique, and have a unique perspective, go ahead, I can't stop you. But if you think I'm going to somehow recant my assumption which was based on incomplete information, then don't hold your breath.

Dungeons and Dragons took its inspiration from fairy stories, fables, religious tales, science fiction, and classic horror stories/movies. Plane Shift wasn't added to the game for a specific mechanical purpose, it was introduced because it had literary pedigree. You may not see any mechanical need for it, but that pedigree remains for a lot of us. Watch a movie like Constantine and you can see how Plane Shifting can serve an interesting story. Teleporting is much more vanilla.

What are you even going on about? Do you know what the literary pedigree of Plane Shift is? Shifting... to another plane of existence. You said your group was using it to transport to another plane for the sole purpose of camping and then fast traveling to another location on the material plane. Those are different things. I don't care if teleport is "vanilla" it does that specific job better, because it is designed as a fast travel spell, where as Plane Shift is designed as a spell to allow travel to other planes of existence for the purpose of adventuring in those planes.

And yeah, I don't see a mechanical need for the spell, because the spell is a story-telling conceit. And, in fact, it can make for BETTER stories if instead of being able to declare "We Plane Shift to the Ice Queen's Manor" they have to find a portal, and then travel through the other plane of existence to reach the Ice Queen's Manor. There is no mechanical need for it, because if the story needs us to travel to a different plane of existence, there are much cooler and more nuanced ways to accomplish it even if we don't have the spell.

And, if you want to fast travel as a druid, you really shouldn't be ignoring Wind Walk, which as I said is a 6th level spell that could allow you to in the same two days you are using for Plane Shift to travel 1,200 miles in essentially complete safety. That is a MASSIVE distance, since it would normally take a group 50 days to travel that distance.


Please explain the trick for utilising Phantom Steed! It feels rubblish now and I miss it. The spell lasts an hour and states "For the duration, you OR a creature you choose can ride the steed." So the mounts can only take one rider. If trying to create mounts for the group, for 4 people, you would spend 40 minutes casting rituals for 20 minutes of riding. That doesn't sound viable at all. For 8 hours travel using spell slots, you would need a whopping 32 spells. Any advice is welcome!

Well, first of all, I don't remember the line about limiting it to a single creature. So, if you rule that only one creature can be on the horse at a time, no matter what, then things are going to be different. But, there is also no reason to assume that you can't carry a creature while riding the horse. That can cut you down to two horses. Of course, you could also make the argument that since the horse specifically has bits and bridles and all that, that they can be hitched to a wagon and pull it, taking you down to one horse

Sure, if you strictly read the spell and only allow a creature and only allow a single creature on the horse, those don't work, but you don't even really need that. You said it only allows 20 minutes of riding, but that's false. Because nothing says you have to wait until all four horses are summoned. You are moving at 100 to 200 ft per round, that is massively fast. Nothing is going to be running you down, and you don't have to go the full distance you can find a safe spot, the party will filter in behind you.

Sure, you can make this a terrible danger that no sane party would try, ect ect ect, but it isn't like you have to follow roads, so the chances of ambushes or anything else are pretty limited.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Point to me where I said you were playing the game wrong? Seriously dude, stop martyring yourself for a moment and listen. You presented me with the information that your group had a cleric who could cast 7th level spells, and a wizard who maxed at 5th. That, on the face of it, doesn't make sense because Clerics and Wizards have the same spell progression. If you played the game the exact same way I did, that wouldn't make sense. So, I assumed you played the game in a different way. You mentioned you were in Greyhawk, so perhaps you liked an older style of game. Players and DMs on this forum, who play differently than I do, have parties with varying class levels, because they like that style of game, and it seems more prominent among older gamers.

So, the thing I did wrong here, according to you, is assume that you didn't play the game the same way I did, and dare, DARE suggest that perhaps your group being non-standard is the reason you are using Plane Shift in the way you are.

Now, if you want to continue scourging yourself over the audacity I had to assume your group might be unique, and have a unique perspective, go ahead, I can't stop you. But if you think I'm going to somehow recant my assumption which was based on incomplete information, then don't hold your breath.



What are you even going on about? Do you know what the literary pedigree of Plane Shift is? Shifting... to another plane of existence. You said your group was using it to transport to another plane for the sole purpose of camping and then fast traveling to another location on the material plane. Those are different things. I don't care if teleport is "vanilla" it does that specific job better, because it is designed as a fast travel spell, where as Plane Shift is designed as a spell to allow travel to other planes of existence for the purpose of adventuring in those planes.

And yeah, I don't see a mechanical need for the spell, because the spell is a story-telling conceit. And, in fact, it can make for BETTER stories if instead of being able to declare "We Plane Shift to the Ice Queen's Manor" they have to find a portal, and then travel through the other plane of existence to reach the Ice Queen's Manor. There is no mechanical need for it, because if the story needs us to travel to a different plane of existence, there are much cooler and more nuanced ways to accomplish it even if we don't have the spell.

And, if you want to fast travel as a druid, you really shouldn't be ignoring Wind Walk, which as I said is a 6th level spell that could allow you to in the same two days you are using for Plane Shift to travel 1,200 miles in essentially complete safety. That is a MASSIVE distance, since it would normally take a group 50 days to travel that distance.




Well, first of all, I don't remember the line about limiting it to a single creature. So, if you rule that only one creature can be on the horse at a time, no matter what, then things are going to be different. But, there is also no reason to assume that you can't carry a creature while riding the horse. That can cut you down to two horses. Of course, you could also make the argument that since the horse specifically has bits and bridles and all that, that they can be hitched to a wagon and pull it, taking you down to one horse

Sure, if you strictly read the spell and only allow a creature and only allow a single creature on the horse, those don't work, but you don't even really need that. You said it only allows 20 minutes of riding, but that's false. Because nothing says you have to wait until all four horses are summoned. You are moving at 100 to 200 ft per round, that is massively fast. Nothing is going to be running you down, and you don't have to go the full distance you can find a safe spot, the party will filter in behind you.

Sure, you can make this a terrible danger that no sane party would try, ect ect ect, but it isn't like you have to follow roads, so the chances of ambushes or anything else are pretty limited.
He's probably talking about 3.5 where plane shift was 5th for cleric & 7th for sorcerer/wizard
 

Pauln6

Hero
Point to me where I said you were playing the game wrong? Seriously dude, stop martyring yourself for a moment and listen. You presented me with the information that your group had a cleric who could cast 7th level spells, and a wizard who maxed at 5th. That, on the face of it, doesn't make sense because Clerics and Wizards have the same spell progression. If you played the game the exact same way I did, that wouldn't make sense. So, I assumed you played the game in a different way. You mentioned you were in Greyhawk, so perhaps you liked an older style of game. Players and DMs on this forum, who play differently than I do, have parties with varying class levels, because they like that style of game, and it seems more prominent among older gamers.

So, the thing I did wrong here, according to you, is assume that you didn't play the game the same way I did, and dare, DARE suggest that perhaps your group being non-standard is the reason you are using Plane Shift in the way you are.

Now, if you want to continue scourging yourself over the audacity I had to assume your group might be unique, and have a unique perspective, go ahead, I can't stop you. But if you think I'm going to somehow recant my assumption which was based on incomplete information, then don't hold your breath.



What are you even going on about? Do you know what the literary pedigree of Plane Shift is? Shifting... to another plane of existence. You said your group was using it to transport to another plane for the sole purpose of camping and then fast traveling to another location on the material plane. Those are different things. I don't care if teleport is "vanilla" it does that specific job better, because it is designed as a fast travel spell, where as Plane Shift is designed as a spell to allow travel to other planes of existence for the purpose of adventuring in those planes.

And yeah, I don't see a mechanical need for the spell, because the spell is a story-telling conceit. And, in fact, it can make for BETTER stories if instead of being able to declare "We Plane Shift to the Ice Queen's Manor" they have to find a portal, and then travel through the other plane of existence to reach the Ice Queen's Manor. There is no mechanical need for it, because if the story needs us to travel to a different plane of existence, there are much cooler and more nuanced ways to accomplish it even if we don't have the spell.

And, if you want to fast travel as a druid, you really shouldn't be ignoring Wind Walk, which as I said is a 6th level spell that could allow you to in the same two days you are using for Plane Shift to travel 1,200 miles in essentially complete safety. That is a MASSIVE distance, since it would normally take a group 50 days to travel that distance.




Well, first of all, I don't remember the line about limiting it to a single creature. So, if you rule that only one creature can be on the horse at a time, no matter what, then things are going to be different. But, there is also no reason to assume that you can't carry a creature while riding the horse. That can cut you down to two horses. Of course, you could also make the argument that since the horse specifically has bits and bridles and all that, that they can be hitched to a wagon and pull it, taking you down to one horse

Sure, if you strictly read the spell and only allow a creature and only allow a single creature on the horse, those don't work, but you don't even really need that. You said it only allows 20 minutes of riding, but that's false. Because nothing says you have to wait until all four horses are summoned. You are moving at 100 to 200 ft per round, that is massively fast. Nothing is going to be running you down, and you don't have to go the full distance you can find a safe spot, the party will filter in behind you.

Sure, you can make this a terrible danger that no sane party would try, ect ect ect, but it isn't like you have to follow roads, so the chances of ambushes or anything else are pretty limited.
The real problem with Plane Shift is that it's so difficult to plan for. How can I prep random encounters that could be anywhere on any Plane? Maybe there should be an app for that. My group voted for the older edition style to roll d% and you end up that many miles from your desired location. Last time they were aiming for Hochoch and ended up 100 miles inside the Dim Forest so it certainly hasn't killed overland travel.

Unless you're referring to a version of the spell from a previous edition, I still can't see how the 5e Phantom Steed spell can trivialise overland group travel. I suppose you could argue that passengers can be carried but it's only a riding horse so a couple of armoured characters are probably going to encumber at least some of the mounts. You still need 16 spells for 8 hours of travel for a group of 4 and they're just slightly faster than a horse, possibly not even if you are taking 20 minutes out every 40 to recast as a ritual. I don't think many groups would split the party while the second horse is summoned. I think the 5e version needs the return of some level based boosts - longer duration, water walking, even flying at higher levels. It would not be unbalanced, just versatile for classes with limited spells known. I struggle to see what it was intended to be used for in 5e. It can't be cast in combat and doesn't last long enough for use as a long distance mount.

You make a fair point about its speed being faster than most creatures travel, albeit bows can still reach.

They don't need to be faster just not prone to exhaustion.

Edit: Maybe the higher speed was intended to be a low rent way of avoiding the crunch of saying they ignore ravines, rivers, and difficult terrain without opening the Pandora's box for encounters? Maybe a more nuanced approach would be to give them the standard speed for a horse in encounters, ignoring difficult terrain, but a faster overland travel speed.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
The real problem with Plane Shift is that it's so difficult to plan for. How can I prep random encounters that could be anywhere on any Plane? Maybe there should be an app for that.

Yes, exactly. Which was actually brought up as a problem with the spell when this discussion started

My group voted for the older edition style to roll d% and you end up that many miles from your desired location. Last time they were aiming for Hochoch and ended up 100 miles inside the Dim Forest so it certainly hasn't killed overland travel.

I have no idea what you mean by killing overland travel. I guess you are trying to say that you rolled percentile for how close to the place you name on the plane shift is, and you ended up 100 miles from your location? Which... cool? Plane Shift is still not a spell that was designed to speed up travel on the material plane, and you still likely could have decided to use any number of spells, abilities or narrative conceits to travel that distance instead of using Plane Shift. You example does not highlight why we need the spell, your example highlights that you found a non-standard use for the spell that allows it to act like other spells.

Unless you're referring to a version of the spell from a previous edition, I still can't see how the 5e Phantom Steed spell can trivialise overland group travel. I suppose you could argue that passengers can be carried but it's only a riding horse so a couple of armoured characters are probably going to encumber at least some of the mounts. You still need 16 spells for 8 hours of travel for a group of 4 and they're just slightly faster than a horse, possibly not even if you are taking 20 minutes out every 40 to recast as a ritual. I don't think many groups would split the party while the second horse is summoned. I think the 5e version needs the return of some level based boosts - longer duration, water walking, even flying at higher levels. It would not be unbalanced, just versatile for classes with limited spells known. I struggle to see what it was intended to be used for in 5e. It can't be cast in combat and doesn't last long enough for use as a long distance mount.

You make a fair point about its speed being faster than most creatures travel, albeit bows can still reach.

They don't need to be faster just not prone to exhaustion.

Edit: Maybe the higher speed was intended to be a low rent way of avoiding the crunch of saying they ignore ravines, rivers, and difficult terrain without opening the Pandora's box for encounters? Maybe a more nuanced approach would be to give them the standard speed for a horse in encounters, ignoring difficult terrain, but a faster overland travel speed.

The spell works fine the way it is and I don't really want to make it even easier to laugh in the face of travel. I mean, even with the version that exists, if you want to assume longbows, you have 36 seconds to spot, draw and fire upon the horse between the time it enters range to when it leaves range, assuming it runs right past you. Less time if it is taking a chord path instead of a diameter path.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Yes, exactly. Which was actually brought up as a problem with the spell when this discussion started



I have no idea what you mean by killing overland travel. I guess you are trying to say that you rolled percentile for how close to the place you name on the plane shift is, and you ended up 100 miles from your location? Which... cool? Plane Shift is still not a spell that was designed to speed up travel on the material plane, and you still likely could have decided to use any number of spells, abilities or narrative conceits to travel that distance instead of using Plane Shift. You example does not highlight why we need the spell, your example highlights that you found a non-standard use for the spell that allows it to act like other spells.



The spell works fine the way it is and I don't really want to make it even easier to laugh in the face of travel. I mean, even with the version that exists, if you want to assume longbows, you have 36 seconds to spot, draw and fire upon the horse between the time it enters range to when it leaves range, assuming it runs right past you. Less time if it is taking a chord path instead of a diameter path.
Many spells have logistical issues. Teleport has the same issue if used on the fly. I was paraphrasing what you said about Phantom Steed affecting overland travel. Apologies if that'snot an issue you have with Plane Shift.

I suppose what this boils down to for me is:
Should people remove the spell from their game if they wish: yes
Should people use the spell if they wish: yes

Riding horses don't have many hit points. There are many ways you could interrupt travel by taking out the mounts. At higher levels though, massacring some bandits is just something pcs do before second breakfast. Why would the PCs run?
 
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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Yeah, not a surprise I've never seen it used. Again, sorry, but, how often have you seen it used? I'll more than willing to bet dollars to donuts that it's almost never used as a travel spell by players. It's one of those vestigial spells that gets kept in the game, not because it's actually used by players, but, because it's not annoying enough to take out.
It's featured in one of our games (which started at 5th and is currently 17th) fairly extensively, used by the druid player (me).

The material component (the tuning fork attuned to a plane) makes the spell sort of an "adventure hook in a box", which I always like for more sandbox/freeform games. We've gone on several quest lines to track down tuning forks to get us into specific places for bigger quests.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Many spells have logistical issues. Teleport has the same issue if used on the fly.

Yes, teleport can have the same issue. Except, you never really see someone teleporting somewhere the DM did not seed into the game. And there is no expectation of imminent danger, you could find empty ruins and that is still a clue. But if you go to the Abyss, there is not only an expectation of danger, it is supposed to be THE MOST DANGEROUS. Which then feels worse when you struggle to come up with something.

I suppose what this boils down to for me is:
Should people remove the spell from their game if they wish: yes
Should people use the spell if they wish: yes

Yeah, my only point was that it didn't seem like something that would shatter campaigns if Druids couldn't plane shift, or if plane shift was removed entirely (which won't happen). It just isn't something that seems to have that level of impact.

If you want it, fine, I'm not saying you couldn't keep it, but it certainly was a change that could have passed completely unnoticed by me.

Riding horses don't have many hit points. There are many ways you could interrupt travel by taking out the mounts. At higher levels though, massacring some bandits is just something pcs do before second breakfast. Why would the PCs run?

Phantom Steeds don't have any hit points.

And why bother fighting bandits if you don't have to? This is part of the problem with overland travel in DnD, you can't usually have massively dangerous threats on the roads, because then the setting breaks down, but at level 15, a gang of CR 1/8 bandits isn't even a bump in the road. So, why bother with even stopping to fight them?
 

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