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[Irda Ranger]

do you calculate what a npc does with his gold after it leaves the pcs hands?

In aggregate, yes. I don't calculate cash flow statements of the local watering holes, but I ask basic questions like: Do the prices in the PHB for good and services 'match up', meaning, can a skilled carpenter afford to live in D&D world? By the rules, he can't. A master smith lives in a hovel and eats gruel every day, and I'm pretty sure a day-laborer would starve to death. I also ask questions like: If Magic-Item-A costs X gold, and the tax receipts of Kingdom-B are Y gold, what follows?

A little common sense and simple extrapolation go a long way towards making a more believable (and interesting) campaign world.

I'm not sure that they've got a "simulationist" style gamer on the entire design team. They need someone who can take a look at things from a "reality check" point of view - I know thats somewhat ridiculous in a D&D game, but it would solve issues like Eberron being 10x bigger than it was supposed to be, or things of that nature.

I get the same feeling, and agree. This is a problem with Iron Heroes too, to some extent.

It drives me a little bonkers that the vast majority of Eberron has far less population density than Mongolia. So I'm with you there. In my own game, I hand-wave it, but that works only because I'm the only guy who cares.

--Dave.

Dave, I'm really glad you guys read these threads. It makes me feel much more hopeful that the 'big ticket' concerns of the community will be addressed, even if it's almost a law of physics that not everyone can be pleased all the time.

I'm also glad you feel that way. There's a sizable chunk of the community that would be really happy if you could get just a few more WotC people to care about this stuff. It's really helpful when the rules don't actively encourage a world that's just whacky, or makes no sense.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Dave has a bit about this in his latest blog entry

Um, yeah. Those were exactly the comments that concern me. XP is a good "meta-game" reward mechanism. GP much less so, because it can be traded intra-game. That's why I am very heartened by comments with respect to XP no longer being "for sale."

You see, the NPC's do exists - just as much as the PC's do, at any rate. They're not just props who exist solely to be killed, or to sell excess +1 longswords to. D&D to me is about playing a role in a world that "could exist, if certain conceits were real." Conceits like magic, and elves.

I do not consider one of D&D's conceits to be "only the PC's are real - everyone else exists solely to serve them."

 

[breschau]

Um, yeah. Those were exactly the comments that concern me. XP is a good "meta-game" reward mechanism. GP much less so, because it can be traded intra-game. That's why I am very heartened by comments with respect to XP no longer being "for sale."

You see, the NPC's do exists - just as much as the PC's do, at any rate. They're not just props who exist solely to be killed, or to sell excess +1 longswords to. D&D to me is about playing a role in a world that "could exist, if certain conceits were real." Conceits like magic, and elves.

I do not consider one of D&D's conceits to be "only the PC's are real - everyone else exists solely to serve them."

The point he was making is that once you drop by the local town to sell off those swords, that merchant doesn't follow you around. He doesn't get his own sourcebook, he isn't likely to be a returning npc, you're not going to invite him on adventures, and you're not going to drop you 10th-level Fighter to start rp'ing the merchant. Once you leave that town, never to return, the merchant (along with his wife and five kids, as well as the rest of the town) cease to exist in any meaningful way in your campaign. Poof.

"Intra-game" you're kidding right. You play one character with one group of people under one or more DMs. You don't take that same character to every table with you. That's ridiculous. That kind of "well my last DM gave me a +5 holy vorpal avenging defender" crap is exactly why no DM worth his salt would allow a player to bring a character over from another game. And if you do, you make a thorough check of everything on the character sheet for balance and cheesy monkery, that's why it's just easier to say, no.

 

[Glyfair]

I do not consider one of D&D's conceits to be "only the PC's are real - everyone else exists solely to serve them."

Do you track the gold from the shopkeeper? Do you know how much gold he spends on what?

The only reason to track that is so the game feels real tio the PCs. The economy doesn't matter at all, except for what the PCs experience. This could be indirect (like Gary's old advice to have prices skyrocket near a dungeon that adventurers are regularly bring gold out off), it doesn't have to be direct. However, if the PCs don't notice it (they just popped into an alternate plane and are on there way out never to return), there is no reason to track it.

I feel he mentioned that in the "It's important to maintain a fictional veneer, of course." statement.

The problem is, however much detail you need for this fiction veneer varies from group to group. My long running 80's RPG group had several physics majors and a much higher than normal attention to verisimilitude in that area was needed. They didn't pay a lot of attention to the economy, but would notice grossly odd things. My current group could care less. The average group in my experience will only notice grossly odd things.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

A fictional veneer is all i really require - I may be able to tell you what the rough tax revenues for the Kingdom of Kintayne are in my campaign world, but I don't impose that information on the PC's. It's primarily there to help me make certain flavor choices (how big is the kingdom's army likely to be? If the King wants to build a navy, how many ships can he build? If the PC's ask for a massive reward in return for doing some task, will the King blink?)

 

[lukelightning]

I don't believe DMs when they say they keep track of NPC money and how PC spending affects the economy. They may think that they do, but I think a most they just arbitrarily make things more expensive for the PCs.

 

[Irda Ranger]

"Intra-game" you're kidding right. You play one character with one group of people under one or more DMs. You don't take that same character to every table with you. That's ridiculous. That kind of "well my last DM gave me a +5 holy vorpal avenging defender" crap is exactly why no DM worth his salt would allow a player to bring a character over from another game. And if you do, you make a thorough check of everything on the character sheet for balance and cheesy monkery, that's why it's just easier to say, no.

You completely misunderstood me on what I meant by "intra-game." The situation you describe would be 'inter-campaign', and a bad idea I agree.

I meant that gold is traded within the campaign world that the PC's are playing in. PC's get it from monsters, or selling equipment; then they spend it on things, etc. It's currency. I disfavor viewing gold solely as a reward system because that's not what it is to the agents who live in that world.

The problem is, however much detail you need for this fiction veneer varies from group to group. My long running 80's RPG group had several physics majors and a much higher than normal attention to verisimilitude in that area was needed.

Right. There are no physics majors in my group, but there's several economics majors, two practicing attorneys, and a self-employed venture capitalist. I seriously considered applying for a job at the Federal Reserve in New York. Ergo, we probably need more verisimilitude in this regard than most groups. I admit that, and don't expect the Core books to meet my every need. I'm just asking that a little thought is put into it so that the 'gross errors' (the economic equivalent of Eberron's land size) can be avoided, and don't have to be house ruled.

A fictional veneer is all i really require - I may be able to tell you what the rough tax revenues for the Kingdom of Kintayne are in my campaign world, but I don't impose that information on the PC's. It's primarily there to help me make certain flavor choices

Exactly.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I don't believe DMs when they say they keep track of NPC money and how PC spending affects the economy. They may think that they do, but I think a most they just arbitrarily make things more expensive for the PCs.

Then you would be wrong.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Then you would be wrong.

Considering all of the games I've played in, he's right.

 

[Jhaelen]

Considering all of the games I've played in, he's right.

Considering all of the D&D games, I've played in, he's right.