New races vs core races

Just to note. You will not find any stat mods of +-odd numbers. The reason is to stop min/maxing

Player rolls Stats
13
12
14
15
17
12

All you he would have to do is put a -1 on the 17 and he loses nothing.

By rule of thoumb all stat mobs are +- an even number.
 

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melkoriii said:
Just to note. You will not find any stat mods of +-odd numbers. The reason is to stop min/maxing

Player rolls Stats
13
12
14
15
17
12

All you he would have to do is put a -1 on the 17 and he loses nothing.

By rule of thoumb all stat mobs are +- an even number.

:) Yes, you are correct, all stat mods on average are even, rather then odd. I've decided to go with odd numbers and require the race be decided before stats are rolled, stats rolled in order. For DM's worried about min/maxers, just adjust all stat mods to an even number, although then you will have to adjust the power level as well. I do not want a rapid escalation of STR values (1/2 orc is +2, orc is +4, etc) to show a race is slightly stronger or weaker, so I favor the odd #'s. Milage may vary. Per the book, this is not smiled upon.

Below are my goblins and hobgoblins (Kanites) - which are altogether different from the book version of either. I actually plan on naming them something other then goblin and hobgoblin, but haven't decided on a name yet. Gremlin and Gremlykin? I do not know yet.

THE KANITES
Phyiscally, the Kanites are smooth skinned gray humanoids with large pointed ears, round bald heads, and 6 fingers and toes per arm/leg. Able to process raw meat without difficulty, they instead have difficulty with some vegetables and grains. Despite this, they tend to love sweet breads and pastries. Currently, the Kanite Culture is rapidly changing, neither the Goblins or Hobgoblins are fully acclimated to the changes yet. The model is very corporate, with individual merchant houses battling for more financial power among themselves and other races. The once dominant military force, Hobgoblins are almost identical to mercenary companies now, hiring out to the merchant houses to keep themselves employed.
The Kanites are spread throughout all available space, looking to sell their wares or services to those with money. Patriotism is not common, but loyalty to the military or merchant house they belong to is typical. Members who travel far from their ‘home’ group often keep in contact using a traveling group of Kanites who serve as mailmen and heralds for the various groups, keeping the ‘home’ groups abreast of international events.
Kanites have unusual vitality, healing from wounds faster then most would recover, and do not scar from non-magic wounds at all. Their vitality does not include a resistence to disease, both sub-groups of Kanites being vulnerable to several illnesses that effect only them & their kin.

GOBLIN (KANITE) 0+0.25+0.5+0.5+0.75+1+0.75+0.75 4.5
Size • Small
Statistic Adj.• -2 STR, +2 DEX
Move • 20’ ground
Race Skills• Bluff
Senses • +2 spot, +2 search, -2 listen
Language • Kanite
Favored Class• Any
Bonus • Heal +1 HP/day of rest
• Know any 2 0th LV arcane spells, cast 2+(INT MOD) times a day total
• 4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st
• +1 save against spells
• Access to Goblin feats

Goblins are as short as 2’6” to 3’6”, generally with pot bellies and over-wide mouths. Hairless except for their ears, bellies, and legs, they have an almost rubbery texture to their skin until they are very old or sick, when their skin feels like dried, cracked, leather. Their eyes are oversized, being almost 1” circles in their small faces, and come in every shade imaginable. Their ears are canine shaped, but flop helplessly due to the lack of cartilage. Goblins suffer frequent earaches, wax buildup, and hearing problems from adolescence on, and treatments for their ears are common products in Goblin communities. They have knobby knees and elbows, with long forearms, fingers, and toes. Goblin joints tend to swell in bad weather, causing discomfort in most and agony among the old or ill. Their bald heads tend to get cold easy, which makes hats and caps a popular form of clothing to them.
The natural tendency towards magic enables the goblins to enjoy a bit of mystique among the less magical races, but their natural aptitude fails to make the Goblins better wizards then the other races.
HOBGOBLIN (KANITE) 1-1+0.25+0.5+0.25+0.75+1+0.5+1 4.5
Size • Medium
Statistic Adj.• +1 STR, -1 INT & CHA
Move • 30’ ground
Race Skills• Stabilize self
Senses • +1 spot & +1 listen
Language • Kanite
Favored Class• Fighter & Rogue
Bonus • Heal + 1 HP/day of rest
• +1 HP at 1st level
• Minimum of 2 HP per HD
• +2 save Vs death effects
• use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if know all martial)

Hobgoblins are smooth gray humanoids standing 5’10 to 7’ tall, with white hair fringing around their head, down their back, stomach, as well as along their arms, and legs. Their almond shaped eyes are overlarge black, giving them a disconcerting look. Their skin feels like oiled leather and develops scars easily, leaving light pink lines at the wound site. Their ears, unlike the Goblins, are shorter and has cartilage, as well as the musculature needed to move their ears like a dog. Cropping of an ear, or notches, is often an identifier (among other Hobgoblins) of their stature in the military.
They have oversized joints, as do the Goblins, but tend to fare better then them, being more resistant to weather, wear, and pain. Their heads have the same weakness to the cold as Goblins, although hairpieces are becoming more popular then hats are to them. Unlike the Goblin, Hobgoblins have a 1’ rat-like tail, which is void of fur. This tail is often decorated with small banner like cloths or jewelry.
The cultural traditions of Hobgoblins include branding, tattooing, and piercing – usually to identify membership of a group more then as a statement of individualism. Almost all Hobgoblins, ingrained since childhood, stand straight rather then slouch, and keep their jaw parallel to the ground to give them a straight stare when possible. When they make eye contact, they usually try to stare others down, waiting for them to avert their eyes.
Lacking the magical tradition of the Goblins, the Hobgoblins have a martial tradition, as part of the rite of passage to adulthood, which includes going through a rigorous (non-lethal) tourney. The young Hobgoblins train for this rite, the weapon they choose has multiple meanings in their society, and so the choice of weapon is made very carefully. Once they pass, they’re considered full members of their society.

Goblin Feats: add 2 extra 0th spells known, or cast extra 2 a day, or learn 1 0th level from bard, cleric or druid list.
 

To balance out the races and keep them equal (and to try for some cultural range) the 'new' humans.

HUMANS 0.25+0.25+0.5+1.5+0.75+1.25 4.5
Size • Medium
Statistic Adj.• None
Move • 30’ ground
Race Skills• Human languages
Senses • Standard
Language • 2 Human languages
Favored Class • Any
Bonus • 1 extra feat at 1st
• 4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st
• Choose a subgroup below
• Astorians Cosmopolitan feat
• Kelben 2 ranks Survival
+2 save Vs poison & disease
Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
• Trymemnia use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if know all martial)
• Tursten +2 save Vs enchantments
2 ranks Vocation: sailor or swimming
Hold breath as if CON = CON+2
• Whelkurst +1 HP at 1st LV
Minimum of 2 HP/LV

Astorian • generally have light skin, which includes an annoying tendency to sunburn regularly. Freckles are not uncommon. Their bone structure is angular, making their faces severe and aloof. They are tall, the average male is 6’ tall, and the woman 5’ 8”, although individual members still range the full gamut of human sizes. Black hair is most common, next brown, and rarely blond hair. While red heads do happen, they are generally due to mixed heritage. Their eyes are usually gray or blue, with brown eyes uncommon. They tend to be long limbed, making them look gangly.
Kelben • with light yellowish skin more likely to tan then sunburn, hard working menials darken enough to look like Trymemnians. Their bone structure is sturdy and wide, giving them moon faces and wide girth. They have thick lips and their eyes are typically sunken, usually brown or black, with a few family lines having azure blue. Their sturdy builds are belied by their tendency to have potbellies even when fit, the average male is 5’8” and the woman 5’6”. They have blond or red hair, with a few brunets.
Trymemnia • Olive complexion with few blemishes other then a port stain, family lines have ‘heritage’ stains. Their wedge shaped faces have high cheekbones and cleft chins, dark hair, and green or brown eyes. Children with extra fingers or toes are not uncommon, though the extra digit is cut off in childhood. They lean towards athletic bodies, the males averaging 5’10” and the women 5’7”
Tursten • with ebony skin and oval faces, they typically have black or brown hair and sky blue or brown eye color. Bone structure varies, and they heights range, for both men and women, from 4’6” to 6’ 7”. A common disorder among them called ‘the Waels’; it’s a series of raised ridges or bumps on the skin, giving the afflicted region an unusual texture. They are distributed with the same frequency as birthmarks. It is passed down on the father’s side.
Whelkurst • Walnut brown skin, long faces, and blond, red, or brown hair. They have a wide range of eye colors. Their bodies are lean, with greyhound sleekness. The average male is 5’8”, the women from 5’5”. Telltale traits include widows peek hair, children born with small tails, narrow patrician noses, and small mouths.
 


I think that the alternate humans are decidedly too powerful for ECL +0. I think that the Whelkurst are more powerful than LA +1 aasimar...

Honestly, I don't believe the results of your race analysis. It would make the following version of half-orcs weaker than dwarves:

* +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
* Darkvision 60'
* Orc Blood
* Power Attack as a bonus feat
* 3 bonus feats (like human bonus feats)

This race is clearly superior to all PH races. It also makes humans, generally agreed as the most powerful PH race, the second-weakest... weaker than the half-elves, which are generally thought to be the weakest. (Actually, humans would be equal to half-elves if they had 2 bonus skill points per level, +8 at first... wow.)

In short, I'm unconvinced that humans need more power. I'm happy with the way it is in the PH -- humans define the cutoff between +0 and +1: anything more powerful than humans is worth at least a +1 ECL modifier.
 

CRGreathouse said:
I think that the alternate humans are decidedly too powerful for ECL +0. I think that the Whelkurst are more powerful than LA +1 aasimar...
Honestly, I don't believe the results of your race analysis. It would make the following version of half-orcs weaker than dwarves:
* +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
* Darkvision 60'
* Orc Blood
* Power Attack as a bonus feat
* 3 bonus feats (like human bonus feats)
This race is clearly superior to all PH races. It also makes humans, generally agreed as the most powerful PH race, the second-weakest... weaker than the half-elves, which are generally thought to be the weakest. (Actually, humans would be equal to half-elves if they had 2 bonus skill points per level, +8 at first... wow.)
In short, I'm unconvinced that humans need more power. I'm happy with the way it is in the PH -- humans define the cutoff between +0 and +1: anything more powerful than humans is worth at least a +1 ECL modifier.

1st: Thank you for giving it a look. Feedback like this is great!!

2nd: the above 1/2 orc suggestions would have +2-1-1+1.5 (I've upgraded the value of darkvision 30'=+1, 60'=+3/2, not that you could know since I didn't post that), +1, +9/2 (the choose any feat humans gain is +3/2, since it equals a feat and also gives the player flexibility to choose) or 7. You could replace the above example, by dropping power attack and a bonus feat to get 2 bonus feats, giving you +2-1-1+1.5+3=4.5. And I have to agree. 2 Bonus feats is way too good. I have to limit it to the purchase of 1, at the very least.

3rd: I have always seen humans as medium/weak, but with 2 great options - flexibility in skills and feats (due to bonuses), and since humans are the dominant race, you are part of the majority 80% of the time. Now, that is dependent on the game, but it was part of the perception that shaped my score values. Perhaps I should re-do the score value of +1 any feat to +2 feat equivelent - that is the primary reason I prefer to play humans. Hmmm.

4th: See below.
• Astorians Cosmopolitan feat (This is the one I was afraid was too good)
• Kelben 2 ranks Survival
+2 save Vs poison & disease
Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
• Trymemnia use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if all martial) Also this one
• Tursten +2 save Vs enchantments
2 ranks Vocation: sailor or swimming
Hold breath as if CON = CON+2
• Whelkurst +1 HP at 1st LV This I thought was fairly mild.
Minimum of 2 HP/LV This means a roll of 1 on a HD, it becomes a 2. How is this a problem? Are you concerned with wizard/sorcerer abuse?

In general, humans are perceived as equal to the other races by you. Any of the above not imbalance the human in your view? I'm hoping to make some slight difference between humans w/out dictating what they do with their bonus feat. I could add a slight weakness to each....

5th) below is the scoring I am using for the races

+1 +1 physical or mental statistic
-½ -1 mental statistic
-1 -1 physical statistic
+/-1 for +/- 10’ move, (medium and large move 30’, small 20’)
+/-½ for +/- 5' move, as above
+1/4 skills available as class skills do to race (each)
+1/4 each +1 to a skill roll
+1/2 low light vision
+1 dark vision 30’
+3/2 dark vision 60’
+1/4 reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½
+1/4 every language beyond your racial tongue known
-1/2 no race class
+1/4 2 or 3 race classes
+1/2 4+ race class, or the ‘any’ option per humans
+3/2 4+HD SR
+1/4 for SR +2 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = 3/2+3/4 = 9/4 = 2 ¼)
+1/2 for SR +2 up to 20 (so SR 20+HD = 5/2+9/4 = 19/4 = 4 ¾)
+1 10’ clumsy flight (fey example, cost ½ due to additional req)
+1/2 every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality (poor, clumsy, etc.)
+1 spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day OR know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day
+1/2 each additional use
+1/4 natural attack, d4 or less
+1 treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush.
+1 scent
+1 plant form, per uprooted, 1/day, but only 1 form possible
+1/4 each additional form available.
+1/2 creature type provides limited immunity (giant, fey)
+3/2 creature type provides excellent immunity (undead)
+3/4 +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st
+3/2 1 extra feat at 1st, your choice from list of 10+ feats
CHANGE ABOVE TO +2 (?????)
+1/2 +2 save Vs (poison & disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion)
+0 Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
+0 Hold breath as if CON = CON+2
+1 use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if know all martial)
+1 +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV
+3/4 Heal +1 HP/day of rest
+3/4 +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic)
-1/4 Run is x4 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, but move action to rise)
-1/2 Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, but move action to rise)

Cool! Thank you for the feedback (and more would be loved!). How about the flavor texts?
 

:eek: Whoops!! Forgot to enter a correction I had made. I listed..

+3/2 4+HD SR
+1/4 for SR +2 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = 3/2+3/4 = 9/4 = 2 ¼)
+1/2 for SR +2 up to 20 (so SR 20+HD = 5/2+9/4 = 19/4 = 4 ¾)

SB

+3/2 4+HD SR
+1/4 for SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = 3/2+3/2 = +3)
+1/2 for SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 3+5/2 = 5 1/2)

Sorry about that!!
 

Beholder Bob said:
1st: Thank you for giving it a look. Feedback like this is great!!

[...]

Cool! Thank you for the feedback (and more would be loved!). How about the flavor texts?

I'm glad you're oen to feedback. Deciding the relative powers of races is hard, much harder than figuring out accurate CRs for monsters -- and that's not easy by any standards.

I have to admit, I have more background testing CRs than I do ECLs, but I think that my experience can still help out.

Beholder Bob said:
2nd: the above 1/2 orc suggestions would have +2-1-1+1.5 (I've upgraded the value of darkvision 30'=+1, 60'=+3/2, not that you could know since I didn't post that), +1, +9/2 (the choose any feat humans gain is +3/2, since it equals a feat and also gives the player flexibility to choose) or 7. You could replace the above example, by dropping power attack and a bonus feat to get 2 bonus feats, giving you +2-1-1+1.5+3=4.5. And I have to agree. 2 Bonus feats is way too good. I have to limit it to the purchase of 1, at the very least.

I used the numbers you had before, including the 1.5 feat-units per bonus feat -- but without your new numbers, I came to a different power level. The changes improve it, I think... I'l have to look over them carefully.

You might want to compare your numbers with Upper Krust's new CR/ECL/EL document. Here's how his numbers translate into your system (not that I agree with all of his numbers):

Dwarf 3.8
Elf 2.7
Gnome 2.7
Half-Elf 2.9
Halfling 3.6
Half-Orc 0
Human 2.3

They're actually not too different from your numbers. At least someone else agrees with your numbers (in terms of magnitude and rank, if not exact feat worth).

I don't think that the Trymemnia are that much better than your otehr human races, though I still think that humans are too strong to be given extra abilities without ECL. They get 1 point of extra damage a round for a fighter types, and a miniscule chance of extra damage for others who aren't likely to enter melee. Weapon proficiency isn't as good as a standard feat.

Astorians are stronger, certainly too strong for my tastes, but perhaps less powerful than some of the others. An extra class skill isn't earthshattering for most characters; ditto the bonus. (It's powerful for those with bad skill lists and weak for others.)

Whelkurst and Kelben strike me as the strongest. The whelkurst bonus varies by Hit Die type, of course -- +6 hit points for d4, but only +2 for a d12. Still, it makes a difference, especially for low-Con wizards. I have a wizard who's about to have Con 7 from his age penalty, and this would mean a lot to him, roughly a 60% increase. Granted, that's an extreme case...
 

CRGreathouse said:
...You might want to compare your numbers with Upper Krust's new CR/ECL/EL document. Here's how his numbers translate into your system (not that I agree with all of his numbers):

Dwarf 3.8
Elf 2.7
Gnome 2.7
Half-Elf 2.9
Halfling 3.6
Half-Orc 0
Human 2.3

They're actually not too different from your numbers. At least someone else agrees with your numbers (in terms of magnitude and rank, if not exact feat worth).

I don't think that the Trymemnia are that much better than your otehr human races, though I still think that humans are too strong to be given extra abilities without ECL. They get 1 point of extra damage a round for a fighter types, and a miniscule chance of extra damage for others who aren't likely to enter melee. Weapon proficiency isn't as good as a standard feat.

Astorians are stronger, certainly too strong for my tastes, but perhaps less powerful than some of the others. An extra class skill isn't earthshattering for most characters; ditto the bonus. (It's powerful for those with bad skill lists and weak for others.)

Whelkurst and Kelben strike me as the strongest. The whelkurst bonus varies by Hit Die type, of course -- +6 hit points for d4, but only +2 for a d12. Still, it makes a difference, especially for low-Con wizards. I have a wizard who's about to have Con 7 from his age penalty, and this would mean a lot to him, roughly a 60% increase. Granted, that's an extreme case...

Kelben 2 ranks Survival, +2 save Vs poison & disease, Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
--Any 1 facet too strong, or is the collection? Perhaps drop the survival OR the save mod to balance it?

• Trymemnia use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if know all martial)
--The exotic weapon for fighters is a pretty good payoff, but the real value is having a wizard able to use that longsword or such. I agree it is a weak feat.

• Whelkurst +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV
--Uh oh, good catch!! Restate that one, 'the die roll for hd has a minimum of a 2, but values of 1 are possible with negative con modifiers.'
Does that even it out?

Humans are being toughened, and for a normal d20 game, I think it would require a +1 ECL, though I think it puts them in balance with the other races. Now, if I assume the +1 feat (any) = +2 feats, I would have to scale these races back 1/2 a feat, which I think would be a reasonable assumption per your comments. I hate to do it, but these guys are a little too powerful. Thank you for catching it!! :D

HUMANS
Size • Medium
Statistic Adj. • None
Move • 30’ ground
Race Skills • Human languages
Senses • Standard
Language • 2 Human languages
Favored Class • Any
Bonus • 1 extra feat at 1st
• 4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st
• Choose a subgroup below
• Astorians: 1 knowledge skill becomes a class skill –if all knowledge skills are class skills at 1st, gain +2 to one knowledge skill
• Kelben: +1 save Vs poison & disease Last extra day w/out food prior penalty
• Trymemnia:Learn to use a weapon from group above weapon type not learned (simple/melee/exotic)
• Tursten: +1 save Vs enchantments, 1 ranks Vocation: sailor or swimming, Hold breath as if CON = CON+2
• Whelkurst: +1 HP at 1st LV or minimum roll of 2 for HD before CON (only one of these, what you think?)

Could you give me a link to Upper Krust's new CR/ECL/EL document? I'd love to see his mechanics!

And a new racial group.

THE LUMAN
The Luman, or Bestial Servants of the Moon, are animal headed humanoids with hairy bodies and chaos running through their veins. Their homeland of savanna, desert, and jungle, shaped them for survival, but their inherent chaos shows in the wide diversity found even in their subgroups. Heights and body shapes vary, eye and hair color do not depend on the parentage, and a persistent streak of lunacy rises from all members from time to time. The bodies are always hairy, have 4 nipples, and tails. Disease is common among them, bacteria, virus, and fungi, to body chaos in the form of cancers, tumors, and cases of their own immune system devouring them.
A powerful (if not stable) society, their monuments and society have survived the ages, prone to radical changes but always there. Currently their culture is divided into city-states, with temporary and long-term alliances forming the power-blocks.

ANUBI (LUMAN)
Size • Medium
Statistic Adj. • +1 STR & CON, -3 CHA
Move • 40’ ground
Race Skills • Jump, Intimidate
Senses • Low Light Vision, +1 Listen
Language • Luman
Favored Class • Fighter
Bonus • +2 save Vs compulsion
• Run is x3 unless on all fours
• +2 intimidate
• Bite: d4 (piercing)
• Bite feat
• May take the scent feat
+0.5+1+0.5+0.75-0.25+0.5+0.25+1+0.25 4.5
The Anubi have a dog, wolf, or hyena head, are well muscled, with overlong arms that allow them to run on all fours, and have a muzzle filled with teeth. Their average height is 5’4” (both male and female) with a weight of 150 lb. The legs are very well developed, allowing them to run at break move at break neck speeds, although to achieve their higher speeds they must go to all fours. Their hands end with talons, but while able to break the skins surface, are not deadly weapons in any sense.
They suffer from pack mentality and run poorly as bipeds. Common genetic defects include an over-thick forked tongue (giving them a wooly lisp), patches of skin with off colored hair that falls out in patches when stressed, to tumor growths on their outer body, usually the stomach, chest, neck, or head. Some such growths are fatal, but usually the Anubi continue to live ‘normal’ lives.
The pack mentality makes them less concerned or developed in a sense of self, their upbringing and genetic nature pushing them to think in terms of the pack. The Anubi dominate the military in their homeland. Independent Anubi are not unknown, but such individuals usually take position outside of the military.
 

BAST (LUMAN)
Size • Medium
Statistic Adj. • +2 DEX, -2 CON
Move • 30’ ground
Race Skills • Jump, Climb, Move Silent, & hide
Senses • Low Light Vision, +3 Listen
Language • Luman
Favored Class • Rogue & Cleric
Bonus • +4 save Vs compulsion
• +2 jump and climb
• Claws: d2 (slashing)
• Bite: d3 (piercing)
+1+1.25+0.25+1+0.5+0.25+0.25 4.5
The Bast have feline heads and humanoid bodies, with thin fur (usually patches) on their body. Their coloration varies, with the parents sharing similarities to their offspring about ½ the time. Their muzzle is smaller then those of the Anubi, but their 1” claws are retractable capable of doing serious harm. Typically 5’ tall and 125 lb., they are lithe but over-lean. Their waist is too small in proportion to the rest of their body, pinching their circulation system and causing difficulty with digestion. Their ears provide exceptional hearing, and the delicate wisps of fur at their tips are very good at sensing airflow.
Birth defects are common among their people, including extra digits, a third eye (useless), children born with flippers instead of limbs, and the “pin head” defect, which results in greatly reduced intelligence. Slightly less then 1/3 of the Bast births have at least 1 such birth defect.
Aggressive but not territorial, the Bast tend towards wizardry, priesthood, and artists; and rarely join groups with pack mentalities or less then full individualism.
 

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