New Rant Posted

OK, I'm going to reask this question before I exit this discussion quietly.

Drawmack: disregarding your disbelief in a Truth in the real world, how do you create a stable world for your players with out a Truth set forth by the DM?

Also, how do you prevent a PC from explaining the most depraved acts away by citing their righteous "goals and motivations"?

Lastly, do you wish to do away with the grid-like system as it is now? Or do you want to do away with Evil and Good, apart from the alignment system?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Drawmack said:
Actions do not make a case for or against relativism.

But, of course, your whole case is based on considering conflict actions. You major argument against alignments is that they do not accurate reflect the the way things really happen because alignments make it "impossible" to portrary realistic moral dilemmas in a game (which itself is an easily falsifiable generalization that only further demolishes your argument).

Also: Nice move setting up the straw man. Focus on my quip, and ignore the logical contradiction implicit in claiming that it is True that is no such thing as the Truth. ;)

herald said:
Please skip the religous overtones. I'm sure what ever divine agency you wish to invoke doesn't need rescue you from anyone who doesn't share your moral convictions.

It's offensive.

Yeah, Felix! How dare you inadvertantly offend someone? Don't you know that there is a unalienable right to not be offended.

Of course, operating on the thesis that there are no unalienable rights (which would require an objective moral order that transcends human opinion and culture)....
 
Last edited:

Drawmack said:
... look at the crusades and how quickly people rallied behind the church to kill in the name of god then.
They might have claimed to kill in the name of God, but for all-too-many of them the driving motivation was in fact not a very spiritual one: Pure, naked greed.
Mark Chance
Yeah, Felix! How dare you ....
Sarcasm or no - heed Henry's words and let sleeping dogs lie, please. Thank you.

- Darkness
 

I don't like D&D's alignment system because it is logically inconsistent. It's that old Socratic dilemma: is the good good because the gods approve it, or do they approve it because it's the good? (Leaving law/chaos out of it).

In D&D, the existence of evil gods pretty much precludes the former (the good wouldn't be absolute if it were the former anyway), which is fine as D&D gods aren't all that godly. Since it is then the latter, well, the ideal of good is beyond the gods.

And the fact that a broad spectrum of behavior is passable under any given alignment, in a system that is absolute, isn't helping anyone's argument. It holds for D&D gods as well as PC's. It just doesn't jive with the world I live in, which makes it useless as a framework for playing a game simulating a fantastic version of that world or some world like it.

InFelix said:

Read Sepulchrave II's story hour and repeat what you just wrote with a straight face. I dare you.;)

Well, I for one have. Not impressed. I imagine that many, like myself, simply don't chime in in one of the storyhour threads in praise of it because it would be rude; trying to use it as an argument here is different though. I see nothing special in it.


Another interesting objection (I read it this way; I don't think he intended it to be read as such though) to the absolute system of D&D that Elder-Basilisk brought up in a thread on evil Paladins a while back is that while good is valuable in itself, evil (the D&D notion of it) can't be because evil is not a system of values in D&D.

Elder-Basilisk said:

Unless you have a strange moral framework in your D&D world such that good and evil are merely labels for two opposing teams, evil is essentially different from good.

The PH identifies evil with selfishness. Many philosophical traditions would agree with that. Others might identify it with pride. Either way, however, evil is generally self-seeking.

The "champion" of evil would not be a mirror image of the paladin engaged in a disinterested pursuit of abstract evil. Even if there were such a thing as abstract evil, it's not something people would pursue. The truly evil villian doesn't torture people because he believes that torturing people is right or obligatory; he does it because he likes torturing people (or maybe because it's convenient and intimidates his enemies)--he doesn't care about obligations.

The "champion" of evil wouldn't actually champion evil at all, he'd champion himself. It's not comprehensible for the epitome of evil to be forced to choose between his "principles" and doing what's most advantageous for himself; his principles dictate that he do what is most advantageous for himself. (They might also dictate a certain definition of advantage to include an autonomy that means surrendering and really joining the forces of good is never to his advantage however). The character might be an embodiment of evil but he wouldn't be a champion of it. He's a mass murderer, serial killer, or evil necromancer but he does what he does because he wants to and expects benefit from it, not because it's "evil."

If D&D wants Evil to exist as an absolute ideal, as it's framwork suggests, it might want to deal with the fact that good is absolute while evil is absolutely relative, eh?
 


Felix said:
Drawmack: disregarding your disbelief in a Truth in the real world, how do you create a stable world for your players with out a Truth set forth by the DM?
Generally speaking I do not concern myself with a stable world. While there are leaders who's goals do not change eventually the leaders do. The world is ever changing and in a constant stat of flux much like our own world.

Also, how do you prevent a PC from explaining the most depraved acts away by citing their righteous "goals and motivations"?
Some times the motivation stops this. The paladin who has the motivation of spreading the word of his good diety (I do maintain alignments for outsiders and dieties as I believe that gods create truth and therefor can live by their truth) will not do so by killing the evil overlord who has been good to his people. Sometimes it is imposible, just as it sometimes is impossible with the alignment system. Also certain acts to no further a goal, acts I do not think I have to name.

Lastly, do you wish to do away with the grid-like system as it is now? Or do you want to do away with Evil and Good, apart from the alignment system?

The grid like system as it is now. Goals change as they are completed or abandonded and motivations stay pretty much the same. I play it as a way for the character to be in flux and stable at the same time. It's hard to explain but it plays very well.
 

Mark Chance: ;)

I will say no more Henry.

Drawmack:

So then do our leaders define our truth, or is there something more to the campaign world? There is Something beyond what our leaders say. Yesno?

by Drawmack
I do maintain alignments for outsiders and dieties as I believe that gods create truth and therefore can live by their truth
So truth is something that can be created? Who has the power to do so? If a "god" can, why can't mortals create their own truth? And if they could, wouldn't "Good" and "Evil" become irrelevent?

by Drawmack
...Goals change as they are completed or abandonded and motivations stay pretty much the same...
So how does a shift in motavation differ from a change in alignment in the current system? Besides being different words, that is.

Wayside:

by Wayside
I imagine that many, like myself, simply don't chime in in one of the storyhour threads in praise of it because it would be rude.
I cited Sep's SH because it does (seem) to have a defined moral system (re: alignment) in that demons and devils are "damned". At the same time, those self-same demons and devils were once the part of the Host. This implies there is flexibility in alignment. At the same time, you have a paladin who is allowed by his god to act as he will; I imagine his actions are still held up against a Truth; although the Truth in Sep's world is hard to define. If you are looking for ambiguity in alignment, and something that streches the bounds of absolutism, I would thing that this SH should very much appeal to you.

And if you don't like that, even the characters don't intrigue you?
 
Last edited:

Felix said:
I cited Sep's SH because it does (seem) to have a defined moral system (re: alignment) in that demons and devils are "damned". At the same time, those self-same demons and devils were once the part of the Host. This implies there is flexibility in alignment.

How so? More than any character's alignment change, I mean?

Felix said:

At the same time, you have a paladin who is allowed by his god to act as he will; I imagine his actions are still held up against a Truth; although the Truth in Sep's world is hard to define. If you are looking for ambiguity in alignment, and something that streches the bounds of absolutism, I would thing that this SH should very much appeal to you.

And if you don't like that, even the characters don't intrigue you?

If vanilla D&D appealed to me I'm sure it would ;) . My problem with a truth beyond the gods is that it doesn't make much sense to me for Paladins to be holy warriors at all. That depends on the gods in IYC though.

Felix said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally find morally simplistic games to be no fun, as they lack depth, complex motivations, and situations that can be solved in ways other than hacking the opposition to pieces.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read Sepulchrave II's story hour and repeat what you just wrote with a straight face. I dare you.

I only meant that I don't see it as having more depth or complex motivations than many games. I definitely agree that a story based on D&D with the existing alignment mechanics can be plenty complex though. A good story can be told in any system. The system is never an excuse :p .
 

The way D&D defines alignment, it outlines a fairly absolute set of guidelines for each alignment, and states while there is some wiggle room, there isn't much. The example I gave of the cleric who sometimes tortures and persecutes those he thinks are "corrupted" would be defined as LG in some cases, and LE (or LN at best) in others. D&D has a hard time classifying people like this.

That IS the wiggle room! That in itself is the variation and dynamics that makes Alignment compelling. That a character can do actions, and the PC's have to figure out if it's Good or Evil or what...that kind of conflict just doesn't exist in a world without alignment. The PC's don't CARE if it's good or evil or what, because it doesn't matter. Torture babies and summon devils, you can still be as good and freedom-loving as the next person.

There's a LOT of wiggle room...Alignment is a label for a broad sweep of behavior, not something you can't move out of. The fact that the game has trouble classifying it means that the PC's have trouble classifying it and THAT leads to some interesting interaction because they have to dig deeper.

You always have to dig deeper with alignment. To find out the origins and the core beliefs of a person. You have to find out how they see the world, and then compare it to how the icons of the alignment see the world -- Alignment is far from shallow.

PCs get the mindset of "we are rightous and just, and anything we do to fight evil/chaos/whatever opposing alignment is justified." To me, that is lazy thinking, and viewing everyone on a good/evil or law/chaos axis and not as people is overly simplistic. IMC, when PCs meet someone, they aren't ever quite sure of alignment, but have to deal with the person as an individual rather than a pre-ordained set of beliefs.

See, if PC's start thinking like that, then they are no longer righteous or just...it's up to the DM to shift their alignment accordingly. It doesn't matter what they think they are, it matters what they do and believe on a grand scale. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but says it's a dog, that doesn't make it a dog. Just because a player decides he's Good doesn't give him a license to do wicked things to beings becuase they're Evil.

The axis does not mandate this simplistic view...certain player/DM styles do. The existence of an axis does not presuppose that everyone knows where everyone else lies, nor does it give inherent justification for actions based on where they lie. Just because something is Evil doesn't mean the Good Guys kill it.

I use alignment, and my players still must deal with the person as an individual rather than a pre-ordained set of beliefs. Hell, they still have to deal with fiends as individuals. Nothing about the exitence of alignment says that just because something is evil, you can get away with killing it, and, indeed, must kill it. It's merely a label for a way of life, and that doesn't mean that it will nessecarily work for or against the PC's.

I use alignment because it adds that solid dimension to moral struggle. It means that the PC's can wrestle with concepts in a world that is absolute, and try to place it, and have their own beliefs and place in the world hinge on that. It means they care about the morality and motives of others, and their own.

Nothing about that is shallow, an easy out, unrealistic, or overly defined. And I take some offense to people telling me that my way is worse for it, when, in fact, it's NOT. If it WAS, I'd have ditched alignment long ago like I wanted to do in the first place.

Heck, I like alignment so much, I'll probably overlay it onto d20 Modern, and AU, and others. It's good. And it adds a dimension that assuming relitivism cannot.
 

Felix said:
So then do our leaders define our truth, or is there something more to the campaign world? There is Something beyond what our leaders say. Yesno?
As I stated before there is no single universal truth. You asked how I create a "stable" world for the players. I defined my world's stability. Do not try to make that stability into somekind of universal truth, it is not.

So truth is something that can be created? Who has the power to do so? If a "god" can, why can't mortals create their own truth? And if they could, wouldn't "Good" and "Evil" become irrelevent?
Yes, Gods, the same reason that mortals can't grant spells to clerics. No, good and evil is defined by the greater gods and only the lesser gods (those the mortals worship) come anywhere even close enough to holding to this ideal to have an alighment. The celestials and demons are avatars and there for part of the god and there for maintain an alignment as well.

So how does a shift in motavation differ from a change in alignment in the current system? Besides being different words, that is.
There isn't a big difference except they happen a lot less often, can be more drastic, and are not tied to a dual axis system.
 

Remove ads

Top