New School Thinking of Going Ol' School

[Dragonhelm]

Yes. say, none of you guys have mentioned the spheres of influence for clerics...

had to develop a ACCESS Database for it ! with search requests. just so I would know what my players could actually cast ...

Really? I can't say I had those sort of problems. I used the REF-2 style spell sheets to keep track of mine. A spell name, brief description, and page#, and I'd be set. You know, it's too bad that sites like Ema's character sheets weren't around in those days. That would make things so much easier.

Now, the 3e spell lists are much easier to read and it is easier to find spells now. 2e organized by spell level.

Initiative was handled differently: Every round, you'd roll a d10, and add your weapon's or spell's speed factor. The lower you got, the better. If I remember correctly, spells had a speed factor equal to their level, bigger weapons had bigger factors.

I absolutely hate speed factor. Played some games with it and it slowed down game play. The house rule my old groups tended to use was to roll a d10, add your init modifier under Dex, then do a countdown. Kinda like C&C, I guess. No cumbersome weapon speeds to get in the way.

I already mentioned the stat cap of 25, but there were also a lot of items and spells that didn't improve your stat, they just set it to some value. So if you had a belt that granted you Str 19 and you already had Str 20, you wouldn't get anything out of it (or, depending on the DM, it would make you weaker).

They wouldn't stack either, such as when you got gauntlets of ogre power and a girdle of titan strength.


Some other things that should be mentioned about 2e...

This was the edition for settings. If you want a fun setting to game in, there's tons of them.

Despite what some may say about the rules, there were some good flavor elements of 2e. I absolutely loved the Legends and Lore book, and despite some balance issues, specialty priests rock. The 2e Arms and Equipment Guide is one of the better equipment resources out there. So you could possibly pick up the 2e materials for flavor, then adapt to 3e.

 

[Mythmere1]

1) combat plays a lot faster but is more "abstract," meaning that it doesn't comprise specific feats or codify the effects of specific actions. There are rules for situations, but they are much more elastic, vague, and subject to interpretation than in 3e. I consider this a good thing because it provides more drama at a faster pace, provided that the DM handles it right. I think that a good DM has more ability to shine with 2e or 1e, but a bad DM sucks less in 3e. The older editions are sort of like an old muscle car. If you know how to use them, they go fast as lightning -- if you don't know what you're doing, you're better off in a minivan.

2) A lot more of the focus of the game is on things that are designed to be handled with dice and a rule book in 3e. Is the NPC lying? Decide for yourself, there's no die roll. Did you spot the ring hidden on the door ledge? There's no spot check - it depends on whether you mentioned looking there.

3) Way less DM preparation time, and it's easy to do things on the fly since players have generally less ability to know things and learn things out of nowhere with knowledge checks and such.

That's a basic outline of how the game feels. There are a lot more details as others have described. I prefer 1e, myself.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

This was the edition for settings. If you want a fun setting to game in, there's tons of them.

And many of them saw 3e. Plus lots of new ones that were never seen in 2e: Rokugan, Midnight, Eberron, the list goes on.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

1) combat plays a lot faster but is more "abstract," meaning that it doesn't comprise specific feats or codify the effects of specific actions. There are rules for situations, but they are much more elastic, vague, and subject to interpretation than in 3e. I consider this a good thing because it provides more drama at a faster pace, provided that the DM handles it right.

A good DM will be able to make 3e sing. We have fast paced, dramatic combat - in fact, there's rules for disarming enemies, dripping them, putting them face first into the mud. There's spellcasters who have to cast under adverse conditions, and there's more suspense because sometimes he makes it - other times, he doesn't.

2) A lot more of the focus of the game is on things that are designed to be handled with dice and a rule book in 3e. Is the NPC lying? Decide for yourself, there's no die roll. Did you spot the ring hidden on the door ledge? There's no spot check - it depends on whether you mentioned looking there.

You can play 3e like that, too. But you can't play 2e without inventing more rules for it.

And I really hated the lack of opposed rolls. So the rogue had 95% on hide? That meant that he was hidden pretty much all of the time, and your character couldn't spot him even if he was called Eagle-eye.

3) Way less DM preparation time, and it's easy to do things on the fly since players have generally less ability to know things and learn things out of nowhere with knowledge checks and such.

Note: That's characters. You can't keep curious players fom knowing those things. 3e just presents a tool with which you can determine how much the character's supposed to know. I didn't remember anything like that in 2e, so again you're forced to invent your own (instead of ignoring what you don't like).

Plus, I never thought it hard to do things on the fly in 3e. Have done so many times.

But then again, I was never one for mystery gaming, where the players were on a "need to know" basis like in certain types of movies. I keep Area 51 out of my gaming sessions, at least where mechanical matters are concerned.

 

[Dragonhelm]

And many of them saw 3e.

Yes and no. Greyhawk had some 3e content, but not as much as it could have. The Forgotten Realms got good support. Dragonlance and Ravenloft were licensed. Dark Sun has the Paizo treatment as well as Athas.org. Planescape, Spelljammer, Mystara, and Birthright got support through official sites, and not much else, other than the rare Dragon article. To my knowledge, there is no official Al-Qadim or Kara-Tur site. However, there's been the rare Dragon article and support from fan efforts.

Plus lots of new ones that were never seen in 2e: Rokugan, Midnight, Eberron, the list goes on.

If we look at D&D proper and not 3rd party products, then we got Eberron. Rokugan/L5R was a setting prior to d20. Without going into too much detail, it got tied to Oriental Adventures, then AEG continued on with the setting. Now it has come into its own with the 3rd edition L5R rules using the d10 system.

Midnight is a 3rd party product, as are other settings such as Dragonstar and Oathbound. While those are all new settings and great in their own right, they are not WotC/TSR D&D products, so I'm not including them for purposes of this discussion.

Third edition isn't really the era that is defined by settings. Rather, it's the era of rules, crunch, options, and balance. Second edition was the era defined by settings. First edition is the era defined by adventures. While there have been new settings and adventures for 3e, they are not the driving focus they were in prior editions, IMO.

That being said, I don't think this has to be a "versus" thread. Rather, maybe we can help the original poster out by giving some tips and tricks on how to make the best use of those 2e books, whether for an AD&D game or 3e game.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

That being said, I don't think this has to be a "versus" thread. Rather, maybe we can help the original poster out by giving some tips and tricks on how to make the best use of those 2e books

My advice for running 2E (should go without saying that this is just my opinions):

1. Play it for what it is. I don't mean slavishly follow BtB rules, I mean embrace the design/philosophy assumptions that went into the rules. (For a better description of what I'm getting at, see here. Also, see here.

Also, be careful about assuming that you know how things work (or "should work") because you're familiar with 3E. For example, one might complain that move silently should be an "opposed roll," depending on the hearing of the listener. However, in old school D&D, move silently isn't generic "sneaking" but an extraordinary ability* to move without making any sound. No sound == nothing to hear, so there's no need for a listener to roll.

Similarly, don't assume that because something is a class skill, other classes can't do it. For example, anyone can hide. Thieves have an extraordinary ability to hide in shadows, and if they succeed, they're effectively invisible, even to infravision. (Spells, magic items, and special abilities that can reveal invisible objects can reveal the thief's location.) Anyone can climb; a thief has an extraordinary ability to climb bare walls and sheer surfaces. For more on this, see here.

2. Keep it simple. That's one of the strength's of "old school" D&D. I wouldn't use non-weapon proficiencies, for example, I'd stick with secondary skills or with no skill system. I find that a rules light approach works just as well, and is faster and easier. Also, be aware that later 2E books experimented and introduced LOTS of optional rules and systems that can weigh you down. Many of these seem to by proto-3E, actually. I'd steer clear of them. Examples include Skills & Powers, Players Option, etc.

3. Seek out and talk to others who play and enjoy 2E. They'll give you the best input on what is good about the game and why it is fun.

* I use this phrase in the plain English sense, not in the 3E rules sense.

 

[Jhaelen]

One round was 60 seconds, not 6 seconds. That means that drawing your sword would take a minute, as does hitting a guy once, or casting the magic missile spell

In other words, long before the Matrix movies, we had bullet-time in D&D

 

[Wik]

I remembered some more stuff.


Initiative was handled differently: Every round, you'd roll a d10, and add your weapon's or spell's speed factor. The lower you got, the better. If I remember correctly, spells had a speed factor equal to their level, bigger weapons had bigger factors.

Now, you'd roll each round, and spellcasters had to announce spellcasting at the beginning of the round. Then, actions were resolved, from lowest init to highest. We played that you'd only get to make one attack on your init and additional attacks at the end of the round, but I don't know whether that was an official rule.

Anyway, if you announced a spell and took damage in the round before it was your turn and you cast the spell, the spell would be lost. No concentration check, no other possibility to save the spell, it'd be gone.

This, I should add, is something I sort of miss. Not just the way casting spells worked, but the general way it worked out in combat.

In 3e, you cast a spell when it's your turn. If you're near someone, take a five foot step back before you fight.

In earlier editions, you declared your action along with the rest of the group (all actions were declared before initiative was rolled), and hoped that by the time it was your initiative count, things were still in place for your FIREBALL. And if someone got close to you and hit you (even for 1 point of damage!), you were S.O.L.

Really made fighters a bit better. And I loved it like that.

Just a difference in game, I suppose.

 

[Wik]

Another perk about 1e/2e that I loved that isn't really present (For me) is how easy it is to house rule in 1e/2e. I always feel just a little guilty if I make anything more than a minor change to the game nowadays. "back in the day", we had alternate spellcasting systems, critical systems, and whathaveyou. Now... the house rules are definately nowhere near as crazy.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

One round was 60 seconds, not 6 seconds. That means that drawing your sword would take a minute, as does hitting a guy once, or casting the magic missile spell

Not sure if you were just being flippant, here, but some of this is wrong. As you say, a round is 60 seconds. However, drawing your sword doesn't take a round, it takes a negligible amount of time in the context of the round (according to the 2E PH, you can even drop one weapon and draw another without affecting your ability to perform other tasks).

"Hitting a guy" once in 60 seconds might be technically correct, if you have on attack per round, but what this really means is "once chance to score a telling blow" rather than one actual swing, or even one actual hit. In other words, the 60 second round is full of swings, thrusts, feints, and dodges, with the combatants grimacing, sweating, and maneuvering around as they fight. So your attack roll doesn't represent a single swing, but a whole series of swings, etc for which you get one attack roll. When you roll a miss, it doesn't mean you never touched the guy in the last 60 seconds, it means that you failed to score any telling damage during that time (maybe you never touched him, or maybe you beat on his shield and armor and he parried a lot), so your enemy's capability is undiminshed. IMO, 60 seconds is still a bit long, but it's not as ridiculous as it might first appear.

Casting a spell in 2E usually doesn't take a full round (although some spells do). In the case of magic missle, you add 1 to the initiative roll if you want to determine exactly when the spell goes off, relative to other actions. One can assume the rest of the round is spent in "recovery," preparing your next spell (getting out components, etc), et cetera.