D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

It's an unfortunate dilemma in D&D design. If countering a spell actually advances play, then you basically never want to allow your opponents to cast spells if you have any chance of countering them, because hey, you've not only made them spend resources, you've actually had those resources hurt them. Under that situation, counterspell becomes a degenerate strategy, something everyone should always be doing all the time. But if you make it so it doesn't advance play, it just spins wheels, then it's pretty rare that "just spinning wheels" is actually worth anything. Especially since design has moved away from spells that auto-win fights, so eating one enemy spell (and losing a generally manageable amount of your allies' resources) in order to respond with a spell of your own is generally superior to trying to counterspell.

There are, of course, going to be examples one can construct in either direction, e.g. enemies that use trivial/weak spells to expend your counterspells before using their powerful ones. But overall it ends up being just kind of dull. Not much happens.

I do wonder how one might go about making a counterspell mechanic that was actually interesting without being overpowered.
Where the current version of counterspell becomes tactically interesting is its short 60' range limit and requirement for off-turn line-of-sight. That gives PCs and NPCs who know counterspell an interesting tactical choice between staying within range and line-of-sight to try to shut down enemy spellcasters with counterspell, or trying to open the distance and use full cover to protect themselves from enemy spellcasters and archers.

Additionally, counterspell is one of the main advantages to building a melee-capable spellcaster, since getting up in an enemy spellcaster's face makes it much harder for them to retreat out of counterspell range.

True, counterspell is tactically boring in close-range fights with no sources of full cover. But lots of tactics become boring in that style of encounter--it's not a problem specific to counterspell.

I'm deeply confused. Why couldn't the evoker [cast knock] as written? You're already willing to adapt things (metaphorically speaking) "off-script." Why do you need the book to tell you that you're allowed as DM to do this? Why can't you just decide that this evoker can do that because she used to sneak into locked areas to alter her work so it would get better grades, but that evoker can't because he was a bit of a rake and chose to focus his electives on charms and illusions instead (even if he never actually got the attention of the wizball quarterback...)
From my perspective, it relates to the (complicated and controversial) notion of what qualifies as fair play at the table. If, in advance of introducing the NPC, the DM gives the Evoker knock, either by custom-designing the Evoker or by adapting a statblock to create a custom NPC, I don't think anyone would object--designing NPCs is clearly within the DM's wheelhouse under almost any paradigm of fair play.

But if the DM introduces the unmodified statblock into play, some tables would consider it a violation of the social contract for the DM to give it knock on the fly. Even tables that generally are fine with the DM tweaking things on the fly might object to the DM retroactively giving a captured NPC knock, since that tweak would operate to directly counter the agency the players expressed when they chose to capture the NPC. (Such a table might be fine, however, with an on-the-fly substitution of some other spell that makes the game more fun without retroactively negating the players' chosen strategy.)

The objection to the new-style statblocks lacking most utility spells is thus twofold: (1) the existing statblocks can't be dropped in at such tables without advance modification to flesh out their non-combat abilities; and (2) adding utility spells to new-style casters is more complicated than simply swapping out spells known was on the old-style casters.

In addition, I would add a separate third objection: (3) the NPCs' out-of-combat abilities are what determines how capable the NPC is of forcing the combat encounter to occur at the time and place of its choosing. At tables, like mine, where encounter location is determined dynamically based on the IC strategies and capabilities of the combatants (rather than being prewritten by the DM) not knowing the out-of-combat capabilities of the new-style casters means I can't just drop them in, because I don't know what tools they have to try to shape an imminent encounter to their own advantage.

From my standpoint published opponents have two main purposes: (A) to give the DM an opponent that can be dropped in on the fly; and (B) to ease the process of creating custom opponents by allowing modification of existing opponents rather than starting from scratch. For tables where issues 1-3 apply, the inability to drop-in the statblocks unmodified and the increased effort required to modify them make the new-style statblocks less useful than the old-style statblocks. As I understand it, that's the key source of the objection to not including non-combat abilities in the new-style statblocks.

(Personally, I found the old style caster statblocks hard to use for idiosyncratic reasons particular to my playstyle, but I find the new-style statblocks even worse, for the reasons described above.)
 
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Yep! And this way of doing the stat block is exactly the se as 4ed and it was, unfortunately, not well received. My main grippe for doing them like that in 5ed is that it was not what we voted for during playtests. In fact, it was quite clear that it how we got them in the MM that was the concensus.

Again, I don't mind that in an other edition, they use this way for the new edition. But 5ed is built around something else entirely. I almost feel like the devs are trying to force a modified 4ed down our throats. As much as I loved 4ed, if I wanted 4ed, I would be playing it and not 5ed.
5e is still significantly different than 4e, on a basic structural level. But they are finally embracing some of the actual design improvements 4e made to the game, because they’re no longer afraid that players who are too attached to the older, clunkier way of doing things will create a barrier to entry for new players. D&D has always relied on the “older cousin” model for introducing new players to the game. Now that Matt Mercer can be everyone’s older cousin by proxy, they no longer need to keep anyone’s actual older cousin happy to keep the brand growing.
 

Already answered but again, versatility. And pacing too. What is good for the players can be applied to their foes too. Just check my other posts.
But...they are have infinite versatility and adding spell slots reduces it? Pacing is a noticable concern but once again spell slots aren't adding anything. It's just adding extra steps for a false sense of familiarity.
 



5e is still significantly different than 4e, on a basic structural level. But they are finally embracing some of the actual design improvements 4e made to the game, because they’re no longer afraid that players who are too attached to the older, clunkier way of doing things will create a barrier to entry for new players. D&D has always relied on the “older cousin” model for introducing new players to the game. Now that Matt Mercer can be everyone’s older cousin by proxy, they no longer need to keep anyone’s actual older cousin happy to keep the brand growing.
This is exactly why I say, bring 6ed and we will see if the design was/is a good one. If 6ed outsells 5ed. Then it will have been a good decision
If not, history will repeat itself.

But one thing is for sure, when a game changes its philosophical design basics, it is time for a new edition. Otherwise, leave it at that. You can add, but not remove. Doing the later is a lack of respect for some of your customers if not all.
 

5e is still significantly different than 4e, on a basic structural level. But they are finally embracing some of the actual design improvements 4e made to the game, because they’re no longer afraid that players who are too attached to the older, clunkier way of doing things will create a barrier to entry for new players. D&D has always relied on the “older cousin” model for introducing new players to the game. Now that Matt Mercer can be everyone’s older cousin by proxy, they no longer need to keep anyone’s actual older cousin happy to keep the brand growing.
Well, these aren't all necmoves towards what 4E did, and the 4E approach had some other issues that would be best not to repeat. It's a little more complicated than that.
 

I just love how these changes are suddenly a big deal when they were largely ignored for years. These weren't "exceptions". Virtually none of the monsters follow PC rules. The only ones that did used the caster slots as a shorthand for giving the baddies a bunch of spells, most of which would never see play.

But anything that wasn't a caster? Yeah, didn't follow PC rules at all. Heck, there's a post, like two above the quoted one here that talks about how the MM rogues don't have sneak attack. This isn't anything new.
Very true--it isn't new. But it's now much more prevalent. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the changes are a "big deal" to those for whom the changes make the statblocks less useful.
 

This is exactly why I say, bring 6ed and we will see if the design was/is a good one. If 6ed outsells 5ed. Then it will have been a good decision
If not, history will repeat itself.

But one thing is for sure, when a game changes its philosophical design basics, it is time for a new edition. Otherwise, leave it at that. You can add, but not remove. Doing the later is a lack of respect for some of your customers if not all.
But is it really a new design?

Really?

How many DMs are casting 1st level spells in 1st level spell slots in combat on their CR 9 Mages and 15 HD demons?
 

But is it really a new design?

Really?

How many DMs are casting 1st level spells in 1st level spell slots in combat on their CR 9 Mages and 15 HD demons?
Depends. Do the casters have shield? +5 AC for a round as a reaction interrupt to turn a hit into a miss can be useful for a CR 9 mage.
 

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