NEW TRAPS article!

[Nail]

The only problem with that is you might come into the "I don't move unless I check this square for a trap" problem.

I'd suggest one perception check per room.

Sure. One roll per 5 foot square is dumb, and I think we all know that.

It might be nice to do it like this: Use the passive perception check to recognize "something is amiss", and an active check (or revised Skill Challenge) to detect the trap itself.

Of course, some traps are much cooler after the PCs know they are there, so we can save the "auto-detect" for that.

 

[Stalker0]

It might be nice to do it like this: Use the passive perception check to recognize "something is amiss", and an active check (or revised Skill Challenge) to detect the trap itself.

Of course, some traps are much cooler after the PCs know they are there, so we can save the "auto-detect" for that.

Why not just have the trap roll an active stealth roll? That way sometimes the trap is really hard to spot and the party misses it. Sometimes it so obvious even the unwise warlord sees it. That way you keep the speed of passive perception but don't have the autodetect problem. The party will see MOST traps, but not all of them.

 

[darkadelphia]

I'm sorry, but revised DCs are just ridiculous, picture this--the Kissing Maiden trap (funny name and idea, btw) is set in the room. The level 4 PCs walk in, anyone with 10+ wisdom notices something is amiss right away, and, as long as one of those people is trained, they see the pressure plate. The Rogue with 19 dex and thieves' tools has +13 to his check. So, if he goes and stands next to it, he has an 85% chance to disarm it in a standard action: one standard action to eliminate a level 4 threat? Worst case scenario, the Rogue goes and plays trampoline on the tile with red crayon scribbled on it "Dont stepz on dis if u iz my friend, k? luvz, the bbeg" and risks getting smacked in his dice pouch, if it misses he can disable it automatically, no chance of failure.

That, my friends, is neither as threatening, nor as fun, as an Orc Berserker.

 

[Regicide]

SEEING traps is good. Its been argued by some that players should SEE most traps automatically.

Definition of trap: any device, stratagem, trick, or the like for catching a person unawares.

If they can passively see it, it's not a trap, it's an obstacle. What you're describing is a locked door.

 

[Stalker0]

That, my friends, is neither as threatening, nor as fun, as an Orc Berserker.

Ah, but you have 4/5 of that encounter left to plan. So how about....4 Orc Berserkers!!

If nothing else, the trap limits the terrain the party wants to move across. Further, you can have the orcs AND the PCs try and use the trap to their best advantage.

One orc berserker would be run over by a party of 5 so quick it would be just as boring to me as the trap. Traps aren't meant to be by themselves.

 

[Tellerve]

Why not just have the trap roll an active stealth roll? That way sometimes the trap is really hard to spot and the party misses it. Sometimes it so obvious even the unwise warlord sees it. That way you keep the speed of passive perception but don't have the autodetect problem. The party will see MOST traps, but not all of them.

So, maybe something like 1/2 level +5 for the traps stealth skill? That puts its 'passive perception' about on par with the DCs listed. Then roll a d20 and if it is higher than the passive use that?

I'm a little unsure which I like best, the pcs seeing the traps or not, or just maybe a mix. Currently my pcs in my group have utterly horrific perception scores as we have no rogue or ranger and no one else with trained perception. Their first encounters have been with kobolds who have often been getting the jump on them with their fairly high stealth skills. Even at the DCs low listings in this article my group wouldn't be able to passively see anything. Obviously this wouldn't be the case with an on point elven ranger making himself the mister observant man of the world.

I'm not sure what the best fix is to traps, but I do know that generally I'd rather have them with creatures in the encounter and make the traps be more of a living environment rather than something inbetween monster encounters.

Tellerve

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

With all due respect to those who like the PCs usually seeing the trap elements with Passive Perception, I just can't handle this. The DCs were shifted down too low with the errata/reworking for skill DCs, IMO. I can't call something "moderate" difficulty if you will succeed automatically with a passive check with zero training or other bonuses (just as long as you don't have negative ability mod). DC 10 as moderate for levels 1-3? I'm sorry, but no. All you need is not be foolish (Wis < 10) not to see that, and so on as you go up in level since the increase in DCs pretty much tracks the 1/2 level increase in mod. Now, Easy is a level of difficulty I can imagine as something that a normal, untrained and mediocre (but not below average) person succeeding on as a matter of course with passive checks. In other words, I think the DCs, which were lowered by 10 given the lowering by 5 on the table and removal of the footnote calling for +5 to DCs for skill checks, should only have been lowered by 5. I think a level 1 easy check should be DC 10 so that an unremarkable person automatically succeeds with a passive check.

You know, I think maybe the problem here is the passive checks being +10. Sometimes that works great but here it means that means that in some cases a check is automatic if passive yet can have only a 50% chance of success if active, ouch. DC 10 easy and DC 15 moderate sound good to me for passive (easy = auto success for normals, moderate = auto success for trained) but once it's active that can become very tough.

Argh. More thoughts?

Here's one actually: I think Stalker0 and others are on to something with providing rolls for the traps' DCs. The problem may be that you should not use passive checks against static DCs. It becomes completely invariant. Active rolls are unnecessary here. Just like a creature would make an active stealth roll opposed by the PCs passive perception check, the trap should do something similar.

 

[Keenath]

Never mind. I was mistaken.

 

[darkadelphia]

Ah, but you have 4/5 of that encounter left to plan. So how about....4 Orc Berserkers!!

If nothing else, the trap limits the terrain the party wants to move across. Further, you can have the orcs AND the PCs try and use the trap to their best advantage.

One orc berserker would be run over by a party of 5 so quick it would be just as boring to me as the trap. Traps aren't meant to be by themselves.

Stalker0, you're a smart guy who always posts really good stuff, but I really can't get behind this perspective on traps. Using normal encounter rules, how can the Maiden's Kiss be made into an interesting trap. The smallest suggested encounter dimensions are 8x10. One square of that is mildly but obviously dangerous (+7 v. Fort 1d10 + 4 dmg). Furthermore, this one dangerous square can be deactivated by the Rogue looking at it funny.

Think of it this way, in comparison to the Orc Berserker, imagine if the Berserker were permanently immobilized and had only 10 hit points (i.e. the party rogue has only to succeed on one fairly easy attack to eliminate it). I fully understand that traps should not be alone and that they should be in an interactive environment, but as it stands, they're just a waste of an encounter slot. Right now, traps are very easy to disarm and very easy to see. Further, some do ridiculously little to those who trigger them (the above referenced Maiden's Kiss). A trap should, on average, present as much threat as a monster, otherwise, all it does is make the game less fun.

 

[FadedC]

Stalker0, you're a smart guy who always posts really good stuff, but I really can't get behind this perspective on traps. Using normal encounter rules, how can the Maiden's Kiss be made into an interesting trap. The smallest suggested encounter dimensions are 8x10. One square of that is mildly but obviously dangerous (+7 v. Fort 1d10 + 4 dmg). Furthermore, this one dangerous square can be deactivated by the Rogue looking at it funny.

Well the interesting thing about the maiden's kiss trap is that it's apparently considered to be a minion. As a result you get to place 4 for the cost of one monster.

One thing that did annoy me though is they have the concept of minion traps in the article, but they don't really explain what it's supposed to mean. Obviously a minion trap is weaker then normal (and the maiden's kiss trap is certainly weak) but unless I missed them there are no guidelines for how it all works.