D&D 5E New Vecna Battle (Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!!!) - CONCLUDED

[DorkForge]

Vecna's CS ability doesn't require any components and IIRC has no discernible visible effect. Are you trying to say what you said should have prompted a Perception check?

And there's nothing to say that he couldn't have used his reaction and then just moved away from a slit

 

[Stalker0]

Vecna's CS ability doesn't require any components and IIRC has no discernible visible effect. Are you trying to say what you said should have prompted a Perception check?

And there's nothing to say that he couldn't have used his reaction and then just moved away from a slit

Technically once stealth is broken you must utilize an action to reengage it, movement is not enough. Even so I would have seen something behind the arrow slit when the counter effect went off

I personally would rule that most abilities, especially harmful ones, have some visual effect by default, and only abilities specially called out as not would not. Otherwise I think we are getting into a dangerous precedent with these new “spells that are not spells” type abilities.

Forget Vecna for a second, if a high stealth monster can use magical abilities that “aren’t spells” and just remain in stealth they are going to start wiping the floor with various parties, which I don’t think was the designers intent when they started the new format. The goal was to simplify spellcasting not create magical ninjas

 

[DorkForge]

I mean, if Vecna can move he'd still have an action, wouldn't he?

I'm just trying to give another point of view, I wouldn't let my players automatically know he was there, technically breaking stealth or not he's across a large room behind total cover, at best they'd know 'something' was there, again assuming he hasn't just hidden again.

As for the Dread CS thing, I could go either way on it, there's no components to announce it, and I don't think there's a description of any visuals, inserting them isn't an unreasonable ruling, but it isn't how it's written (again, from memory).

 

[Stalker0]

It’s not total cover, it’s arrow slits (otherwise he couldn’t target us). And Vecna wouldn’t have an action yet as he just used his reaction on my turn .

My caution comes from hard experience running players with insane stealth abilities in multiple games. It is very easy to get a nigh unbeatable stealth in 5e, so if you allow them to do a lot of things and remain in the stealth…it’s practically an auto win. The only thing that balances stealth is that it’s also easy to break.

Just like I didn’t want simulacrum to unduly influence our impression of Vecna, I don’t think giving Vecna a “magical ninja” ruling on dread counterspell is appropriate either (unless he was a magical ninja in the lore) Heck I can kill 20th level parties with a lot lower CR creature if they can do offensive actions and never break stealth.

But I’ve said my peace, as I think I’m moving into rant territory. As mentioned, I’m assuming my character still sees nothing and I’m acting accordingly.

 

[MarkB]

Vecna's CS ability doesn't require any components and IIRC has no discernible visible effect. Are you trying to say what you said should have prompted a Perception check?

And there's nothing to say that he couldn't have used his reaction and then just moved away from a slit

Both of Vecna's reaction abilities describe him speaking at least a word, so they should be audible if nothing else.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm with @Stalker0 when it comes to what I would rule, but I didn't mean for @DND_Reborn to take it as us questioning his rulings. (Stalker may have, though!)

For my part, I wasn't expecting a behind-the-screen. I only meant to be discussing it among the other players. I was okay with not fully understanding what was going on.

But things are lost on both sides of the "screen" when we play PBP, so the clarity might be worth it just to save us some time (and help me imagine the scene correctly).

That all said, I definitely feel that Dread Counterspell should include a dread word (Vecna's voice) that echoes in the caster's very soul. I understand not knowing exactly where it's coming from, but generally? We probably should at least know that he's "over there" by now.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You should not give that much info.
Or at least, put it into spoiler format!


Pffft... revealing too much spoils the fun.

LOL sorry. I will do so in the future so people can only see behind the curtain if they want to.

1) I was watching around the corner and able to see the stone pillar while pylim worked on the symbol. I even mentioned that I was “looking for anything suspicious with my true sight”. So if Vecna was casting a spell through an arrow slit, he should not have remained hidden from me.

There seems to be some confusion and I apologize if that was my fault! I'll try to be clearer from this point on.

You were exampling the spell in front of you, identifying it as a symbol, which was the first and most obvious thing your truesight revealed. Pyre was not working on the symbol (she couldn't do anything to deactivate it anyway...), she was 15 feet away from it on the map, trying to neutralize the trap she had found (which was not the symbol) at her position then in the hallway.

Spoiler

At the time the flesh to stone was cast, the caster was not in Ezabard's line of sight (you were all the way back in the corner of the hallway).

2) this is more debatable, but I would rule that if Vecna did counterspell me through an arrow slit, that would reveal him as well. It seems against the spirit of the hide rules to be able to do an offensive action and remain hidden, as that normally requires special feats like skulker.

Dread Counterspell is not casting a spell so would not reveal Vecna if he is hidden from Ezabard.

He surges forward, moving behind the altar or rock (whatever that thing is on the map right ahead of me that looks like some kind of small structure) and will duck down behind it to gain cover.

Given Ezabard's Intelligence, you might want to not do this as you will cross the symbol spell in front of you, activating it....

Or you can certainly still do this, and risk the symbol spell?

FWIW, it is an alter with a female body on it, which was described in post #52 when I set the scene.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Both of Vecna's reaction abilities describe him speaking at least a word, so they should be audible if nothing else.

Spoiler

From dozens of feet away when the party is in battle against shadows, casting spells, speaking aloud to be over heard in the general turmoil of combat?

You would have to have a great passive perception (considering the disadvantage imposed) to hear someone uttering a word, which doesn't even have to be spoken above a whisper...

Anyway, it won't matter soon enough... And can be saved for discussion in another thread if you wish?

 

[MarkB]

It feels like there's a lot riding on the technicality of creatures' very spell-esque abilities not actually being spells. I'm fine with, say, not being able to counterspell it, but when it's an offensive, damage-dealing ability that doesn't specifically mention being stealthy to use, it should be treated as being equivalent to a spell or attack for stealth purposes IMO.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It feels like there's a lot riding on the technicality of creatures' very spell-esque abilities not actually being spells. I'm fine with, say, not being able to counterspell it, but when it's an offensive, damage-dealing ability that doesn't specifically mention being stealthy to use, it should be treated as being equivalent to a spell or attack for stealth purposes IMO.

Unfortunately in 5E, stealth and its perception has always been a very loose system subject to DM interpretation more than nearly any other mechanic in the game.

Spoiler

I like to run the game "realistically" when it comes to such things. Passive perception is just that, passive. For someone like Pyre, there is a huge difference due to disadvantage. With just darkvision and seeing in dim light, and with sound muffled by distance, barriers, and possibly other things, Pyre's Passive Perception is 19 instead of 24. Now, if Pyre is actively perceiving (via her action or some other feature), due to reliable talent, even with disadvantage she can't get below at 24. Unfortunately in Pyre's case, 19 wasn't good enough, but 24 would have been...

Anyway, in the case of Dread Counterspell, Venca just utters a word and the target takes psychic damage. I don't see any reason narratively while if he is successfully hidden such a feature would reveal his location, especially when opponents are not looking for him even in the vicinity where he is.

Finally, although a technical issue, the fact is Dread Counterspell isn't a spell. It is a feature, not an attack, even though it deals damage. I see it as rather an indirect thing since it requires no attack roll nor does it use his action, just a reaction. Otherwise, what can I say--it's Vecna.