D&D 5E New Vecna Battle (Let's Get Ready to RUMBLE!!!) - CONCLUDED

[FitzTheRuke]

Now, I hope you take this in the spirit of a friendly discussion (I am not in the habit of arguing with my DM and I'm happy to play the game however you want to rule it). But, for the purposes of philosophical game discussion:

I like to run the game "realistically" when it comes to such things.

So do I. However, I don't think that it's realistic to assume that causing great things to happen (like casting spells or using spell-like abilities) uses so little effort that it's easy to hide. All the theatrical precedences for such things involve theatrical effects.

Anyway, in the case of Dread Counterspell, Venca just utters a word and the target takes psychic damage.

Yeah. A WORD THAT CAN KILL. I don't think a word that can kill is a subtle thing. Especially not if it's killing YOU. It's got a range. The word should (IMO) be impossible NOT to hear within that range, not the other way around.

I don't see any reason narratively while if he is successfully hidden such a feature would reveal his location, especially when opponents are not looking for him even in the vicinity where he is.

We're frantically looking for him EVERYWHERE. I don't see any reason narratively why it wouldn't at least reveal that he's "over there somewhere". YMMV.

Again, I'm fine with you ruling it however you like, it makes for a scary encounter, which is as it should be (that part of it, anyway).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Now, I hope you take this in the spirit of a friendly discussion (I am not in the habit of arguing with my DM and I'm happy to play the game however you want to rule it).

No issues there.

But, like with other ruling discussions, I would prefer to move it to another thread so we can keep the focus for this thread on that actual fight. I'll respond this time in another spoiler, just to keep it "contained" as much as possible, but will keep any further responses for another thread if people want to continue discussing it.

Spoiler

Yeah. A WORD THAT CAN KILL. I don't think a word that can kill is a subtle thing. Especially not if it's killing YOU. It's got a range. The word should (IMO) be impossible NOT to hear within that range, not the other way around.

So can other spells and features, but unless the feature describes how it works, like the Banshee's Wail, nothing dictates that any such words need to be spoken in any level of great volume.

What about the power word spells? All they say is speak or utter, nothing even indicates the target needs to hear the word spoken for the spell to take effect!

So, how loudly does Vecna have to say it? As loudly or quietly as he wants, as long as it is spoken clearly IMO.

We're frantically looking for him EVERYWHERE. I don't see any reason narratively why it wouldn't at least reveal that he's "over there somewhere". YMMV.

Are you though? Pyre was working on the trap, Ezabard was focused at that moment on the symbol, Vyrlim was casting a spell. In fact, only Selossen was actively watching IIRC at the time Vyrlim's spell was interrupted and wouldn't have been able to see Vecna at that time from that position anyway.

For Ezabard's spell, you were all engaged in general melee, which I doubt anyone would generally consider a quite affair, and would be focused on the danger at hand, more so than trying to hear Vecna utter a word some distance away.

FWIW, if you were DMing this and running it as you see it should work, I wouldn't have any issues, either.

 

[Helldritch]

I would tend to rule exactly as @DND_Reborn did. The trap acted as decoy for the characters looking at it and it's effects.

A power word can be shouted or whispered. I do not see why Vecna's ability to counter spell could not be whispered too. Even casual voice level could well go unnoticed in a battle. Combatant are shouting and moving and calling for help or simply name calling their enemies. With all that noise from combat, Vecna is and should be safe from casual discovery.

But if Vecna uses an action to actually strike a character now that they know that he is there... No roll should be made to notice him.

 

[Stalker0]

As requested, I will not perform any further discussion on the topic of stealth in this thread. I will just say that these fights have taught me that I really do not like the spell as abilities change in the newer monster books. At first it made sense to me as a simplification tool, but we have had so many arguments over just one creature let alone other monsters because of this rule. Whether its counterspell or anti-magic or stealth....it seems that the rules didn't bring enough description with their simplification as compared to spells (as spells come with lots of preset rules to tell you how they generally operate). So I think the change over was probably a mistake.

going back to it, using my super brain, if I go with the notion that Pyre got hit with a spell that I couldn't see, but the target could see them, that should greatly limit where the caster could be (just looking at the map I think it would have to be to the south, to the north I could see them easier than they could see Pyre, and straight ahead it would be pretty straightforward for me to see them. So do I at least get a general area I think the caster would have been casting that petrify?

On the symbol, yes totally misunderstood, I thought Pyre had taken care of it. Ok, I guess I will not move forward then and will instead duck back behind the bars (looking at the map it does not look like I can tiptoe around it right?)

 

[Helldritch]

As requested, I will not perform any further discussion on the topic of stealth in this thread. I will just say that these fights have taught me that I really do not like the spell as abilities change in the newer monster books. At first it made sense to me as a simplification tool, but we have had so many arguments over just one creature let alone other monsters because of this rule. Whether its counterspell or anti-magic or stealth....it seems that the rules didn't bring enough description with their simplification as compared to spells (as spells come with lots of preset rules to tell you how they generally operate). So I think the change over was probably a mistake.

going back to it, using my super brain, if I go with the notion that Pyre got hit with a spell that I couldn't see, but the target could see them, that should greatly limit where the caster could be (just looking at the map I think it would have to be to the south, to the north I could see them easier than they could see Pyre, and straight ahead it would be pretty straightforward for me to see them. So do I at least get a general area I think the caster would have been casting that petrify?

On the symbol, yes totally misunderstood, I thought Pyre had taken care of it. Ok, I guess I will not move forward then and will instead duck back behind the bars (looking at the map it does not look like I can tiptoe around it right?)

And I agree with you about the over simplification of spells and powers in the new stat block. I was and still is very disappointed that WotC went this way. This causes a lot more grayish area that 5ed do not need to have. They really should have kept those changes for 6ed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

going back to it, using my super brain, if I go with the notion that Pyre got hit with a spell that I couldn't see, but the target could see them, that should greatly limit where the caster could be (just looking at the map I think it would have to be to the south, to the north I could see them easier than they could see Pyre, and straight ahead it would be pretty straightforward for me to see them. So do I at least get a general area I think the caster would have been casting that petrify?

The petrify started last round prior to initiative--in fact, it was the agent that started initiative in a sense.

On the symbol, yes totally misunderstood, I thought Pyre had taken care of it. Ok, I guess I will not move forward then and will instead duck back behind the bars (looking at the map it does not look like I can tiptoe around it right?)

With truesight you see that getting around it would be impossible.

You used misty step to get to square #10 (your current position, not shown below), where would you like to move back to?

To be clear, there are no "bars" any where. The sliding wall which is closing now is the dark line separating spaces #4 and #5, the red shadow and #6. (Pyre was at position #4 when she was working on disabling this trap)

Between spaces #7 and #9 and #8 and #10 are divided by a wall/framwork for the double doors which are smashed open (the remnants in spaces #9 and #10).

Ezabard will realize either the party needs to:

1. stop the sliding wall somehow
2. get the party to the right side, spaces #5-10 to engage the enemy
3. pull back to the left side (where most of you are), but then figure out how to get past the wall once it closes

Also, if Ezabard stays in spaces #9 or #10, he will be able to use truesight to "view" the spaces beyond and I will relate that information if that is your choice.

 

[Stalker0]

alright then I will stay in square 10 to end my turn

 

[DND_Reborn]

alright then I will stay in square 10 to end my turn

4.2.12 (Ezabard Con't) As Ezabard misty steps on the shattered door, and hears the wall begin to slide closed behind him, he sees an enormous room unfold before his magically enhanced sight! A monolithic room with multiple tiers, grand stairs, and the magical glows of numerous symbol spells and glyphs of warding are scattered across the landscape.

Just past the symbol before him, Ezabard sees the altar and the woman bound to its top. Written in Infernal is some text you cannot make out. The two flanking statues a top low burning fires are posed in bowed positions.

Surrounding the pillar of darkness and the stone tower it hides, is a pool of green-black liquid, bubbling and emitting vaporous fumes that shroud the lowest level in a misty haze. Far across the haze another level mirrors the one he stands on in height, in its far reaches he sees what looks like a study, and in the other a dim blue light radiates from a stone portal standing against the wall.

Ezabard barely noticed through a narrow arrow-slit in the dark-covered stone tower, a pair of slightly glowing red eyes.



It is now Vecna's Turn.

Wait a minute... @Stalker0 why is Ezabard's Initiative modifier +3??? Shouldn't it be +2? What am I missing?

Otherwise, Vecna would be going before Ezabard...

 

[Stalker0]

4.2.12 (Ezabard Con't) As Ezabard misty steps on the shattered door, and hears the wall begin to slide closed behind him, he sees an enormous room unfold before his magically enhanced sight! A monolithic room with multiple tiers, grand stairs, and the magical glows of numerous symbol spells and glyphs of warding are scattered across the landscape.

Just past the symbol before him, Ezabard sees the altar and the woman bound to its top. Written in Infernal is some text you cannot make out. The two flanking statues a top low burning fires are posed in bowed positions.

Surrounding the pillar of darkness and the stone tower it hides, is a pool of green-black liquid, bubbling and emitting vaporous fumes that shroud the lowest level in a misty haze. Far across the haze another level mirrors the one he stands on in height, in its far reaches he sees what looks like a study, and in the other a dim blue light radiates from a stone portal standing against the wall.

Ezabard barely noticed through a narrow arrow-slit in the dark-covered stone tower, a pair of slightly glowing red eyes.

View attachment 253045

It is now Vecna's Turn.

Wait a minute... @Stalker0 why is Ezabard's Initiative modifier +3??? Shouldn't it be +2? What am I missing?
View attachment 253048

Otherwise, Vecna would be going before Ezabard...

Luckstone gives +1 to all ability checks. Initiative is technically a dexterity check in 5e, hence the +1.

Fun Fact: The champion fighter's remarkable athlete and the bard's jack of all trades also applies to initiative.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Luckstone gives +1 to all ability checks. Initiative is technically a dexterity check in 5e, hence the +1

Thanks! I figured I was missing something...

That brings up an interesting issue. If we allow DEX to break ties, I think Vecna would still have gone first, but I assumed your +3 was just from DEX so gave the tie to the player. I'll just keep the order as is I guess.

4.2.12 (Vecna) Vecna casts dispel magic on Ezabard, who loses his truesight! (Roll 11+6=17 vs. DC 16)

@Stalker0 you do see Vecna now through the arrow slit. Do you want to try to counterspell his dispel magic? I need to know before I continue his turn.