D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I dunno, that seems like a pretty good deal. Not a good analogy. What if you had a barbarian subclass where they could no longer fight at all but in exchange got to be a mediocre caster?

Because outside of levels 2-4 and 17-20, a moon Druid is a mediocre fighter. They can tank okay just through having tons of HP but their hit rolls and damage really lag along with their AC. Outside of combat their spell casting is…well, vanilla Druid. Their advantage is flexibility.

Not a subclass. A stance or a round by round option that can be dropped whenever. It's not like moon druid lost their casting permanently.

If you want to do co-opt another class's reason for existing, you should at least have to burn some spell slots.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

That sort of thing comes up all the time in my regular group. So…diff’rent strokes, I guess.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

So I think the core problem here is that with the current change there are no compelling mechanical reason to ever shapechange. Another thing that botheres me is that there are no mechanical effect related to what shape is chosen. A dog work is the same as a lion, work the same as an elephant.

Essentially on demand allowing you to sub Wis for Dex or Strength is useful in exploration. It's not like barbarians get "Brawn over Brains" that let them sub Strength for Wisdom or Intelligence. Apes can use tools/armor/weapons. So a low level druid in Ape form gets to rock a 18+ Strength and Dex, stats that the non-casters had to invest actual real resources in. Toss on a spare suit of studded leather and pick your shield back up and the druid has an 18 AC. Clearly they need an extra 40 temp hp at level 3 on top of that!

People keep bringing up Shillelagh, but that doesnt let you use your Wisdom to shove, grapple, break stuff etc on top of improving your Dexterity save, stealth, initiative, acrobatics, etc.

You can also change your size and physically assume animal form, which has tons of uses other than just pure hack and slash. Unless your DM has NPC's randomly attack every animal they come across its a great way to blend in.

 

[mellored]

Apes can use tools/armor/weapons.

That sounds like a house rule to me.

Or does every druid need to Wildshape into an Ape?

Edit: also, it takes a while to put on armor.

 

[Clint_L]

Yeah, I'm feeling more and more like trying to make the generic template concept work by adding more features to it (i.e. more complexity) is putting lipstick on a pig. The fundamental premise might just be bad. I am usually a fan of simplicity, but maybe this is a situation where the complexity of being able to assume different animals shapes, with all their strengths and weaknesses, is where the fun is.

Ultimately, I think the current version of druid has one definite problem and one possible problem.

The definite problem is that moon druid is OP at low levels, which is where most games are played. This can make other players resentful ("I thought I was the tank, but apparently this other character, who is also a spell caster, is the tank. As well as the scout."). And it makes most people who play druid want to play moon druid, because why wouldn't you want to be the star almost right out of the gate? And it makes combat hard to balance for DMs, since to make an encounter threatening to the moon druid it becomes lethal to almost everyone else (i.e. the wizard who, at level 2, has 10 HP compared to the moon druids 81 effective HP).

So moon druids are a definite problem and need to be better tuned, especially before level 5.

The possible problem is that maybe the class is too complex and this is making them an unpopular choice. But I'm not so sure that this is actually the case. It might be the case but have we got anything besides speculation to go on? I kind of feel that the game needs complicated classes as well as simple classes. There are some players who really enjoy getting out their monster manual and making lists of all the different animal options that might be useful in different situations. And as a DM, I think it is pretty fun when the druid comes up with an unexpected animal choice.

So, going back to where we started...how much of this could be solved by simply removing this ability from Circle Forms for moon druids: "The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into more dangerous animal forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1 (you ignore the Max. CR column of the Beast Shapes table, but must abide by the other limitations there)"? Why not just keep the part that they get at level 6, where they can transform into an animal of up to 1/3 their level?

That would get rid of the problem of moon druids being OP tanks at low levels, and I don't think anyone finds that ability to be unbalanced at level 6, when main tanks already have their extra attacks and a chonky amount of HP themselves.

 

[Stalker0]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

And in my current game one character talks to every animal they come across, even seeking out ones for info.

Different strokes for different folks mate.

 

[mellored]

The definite problem is that moon druid is OP at low levels,

The definite problem is the CR of the bear. Not just for wild shape, but for DMs using it, or for summons.

And if there is ever any other OP beast that shows up, it can also become an issue.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I like it. Although, I hate that Druid is just the shapeshifting class now. Eventually being able to level up enough to shapeshift was something that felt good to earn. Now like everything else, it's all just served to you asap.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The first time I ever played a druid there was a conversation with wolves about "survival of the fittest" Vs the value of caring for the wounded. This was over 30 years ago.

Okay? And did you need to roll social checks for that, or did you mostly just RP?

Because in my expeirence it is all just RP, because the DM doesn't plan on you talking to the animals.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That sort of thing comes up all the time in my regular group. So…diff’rent strokes, I guess.

I can't imagine it, honestly, what kind of persuasion checks are you making that you couldn't do just as easily with some treats and animal handling?

Remember, the idea is to give advantage on intimidation, persuasion, and deception in exchange for wildshaping. Most animals we don't need to deceive or persuade. Intimidate sure, but we don't cast Speak with Animals to do that.