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NFL Week 12

Crothian said:
Jermaine Jackson has a Ring. He never even started a game, he played clean up for Kurt Warner in their amazing 99 season. I'm not even sure he is still in the league. But he has a ring...guess he is great.

Ah sorry, I didn't take into account hair splitting and taking the post completly out of context. While it is true that the hangers on and also-rans get rings too the subject at hand was the QB's in question. But yeah, you have a point they don't deserve a ring either (the also rans) and shouldn't get one.


btw, Golem has a Ring, too.
Yeah, but he stole it after it was "found".
 

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The Ring is a reward for the team, best of all time is about the individual. That's why styats are important and game dominacne. Moss hasn't wona Super Bowl, doesn't mean he isn't talked about for being the best Wide reciever. Barry Sanders never won it either, and he is in the conversation for best running back of all time.
 

Its the QB who gets blamed when things go wrong. Case in point Kurt Warner. Kurt (a great QB, I believe he has 2 rings) is replaced by a rookie who isn't worthy to clean the mud from his cleats. Never mind that Shockey forgot how to catch a ball or the offensive line are a bunch of girls. Eli is in there and the line is still letting him get killed and Shockey is still playing. But yeah....it's a team sport. Last I saw, the Rams aren't doing so hot either.
 

That may be true, but...

drothgery said:
The Pats have won more games than the Colts because they have an above-average offense and defense; the Colts have a great offense and bad defense. Manning does not play defense.

This would be a reasonable contention if the Colts lost big games because of their defense. But take last year's AFC Championship game as a classic example - the Colts were in the game and the only thing that took them out of the game was Manning and his inability to figure out a Belicheck defense. Anything else is simply revisionist history...

Again, Manning is a great individual player (albeit aided by a great trio of receivers, an awesome tight end in Clark, and a great RB to set up the pass) with great individual statistics.

But, having said all that, if you think he is going to occupy the same halls of history as other QBs who were great in their own right (Montana, Elway, Star, Unitas) AND who won the big game and sometimes more than once, then I will have to politely disagree.

It's not about just winning the Super Bowl. This is a straw man argument that no one but the opposition is making. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are not and were not great quarterbacks and will not be remembered as better QBs than Marino despite the fact that they were in, and won, the Super Bowl. But in and among quarterbacks who are legitimately great by any standard (of which Manning is assuredly one and Jermaine Jackson is decidedly not), there are tiers and guys who win it are on a different one than guys who didn't...

And while I have refrained from talking about Manning v. Brady, I will say this...as a Bostonian, I am more than comfortable having Brady and leaving you guys to take Peyton...and if I misspelled anything in that sentence, you'll forgive me...I can't see what with the reflection of all the football and baseball bling-bling of the past three years. ;)

Hey, in the end, we're all on the same page when it comes to knowing the best hobby in the world and that's what counts!

-matt
 

I'm just pleased that my Raiders put together a game worth watching on one of the few occasions I get to see them.

That was a great game, and the hated Broncos lost (all is well in the universe...).

PS
 

Well, if winning the big game counts then Otto Graham is the best QB of all time. He took his team to the championship game each of the ten years he was in the league and won it seven times. I think Elway has been to the most Championships game next, winning two of the five.

Manning is a great QB, but truthfully I place him seocnd best of the ones playing. Favre is the best in my mind. Bardy is coming along great, but this is only his 4th year. He has great potential but I want to wait till he's been in the league a while.
 

msd said:
This would be a reasonable contention if the Colts lost big games because of their defense. But take last year's AFC Championship game as a classic example - the Colts were in the game and the only thing that took them out of the game was Manning and his inability to figure out a Belicheck defense. Anything else is simply revisionist history...

Really? I don't recall Manning's Colts ever losing a playoff game where they held the opposition to under three touchdowns.

Besides, the notion that there are "non-big" games in the NFL is kind of silly; unless you've clinched home field throughout the playoffs, every game is big.
 

Crothian said:
Well, if winning the big game counts then Otto Graham is the best QB of all time. He took his team to the championship game each of the ten years he was in the league and won it seven times. I think Elway has been to the most Championships game next, winning two of the five.

Bradshaw's 4 of 4 is probably up there too, by that measure.

Crothian said:
Manning is a great QB, but truthfully I place him seocnd best of the ones playing. Favre is the best in my mind. Bardy is coming along great, but this is only his 4th year. He has great potential but I want to wait till he's been in the league a while.

Favre stands well above Manning in "greatest of all time" points, and I wouldn't want anyone else quarterbacking my Packers while he's healthy enough to do so and still wants to play. But Manning's better right now.
 

Crothian said:
Well, if winning the big game counts then Otto Graham is the best QB of all time. He took his team to the championship game each of the ten years he was in the league and won it seven times. I think Elway has been to the most Championships game next, winning two of the five.

And there are plenty of folks that consider Graham the greatest QB ever. Of course, there's a lot fewer folks around that remember him, so he rarely receives mention anymore.

Manning is a great QB, but truthfully I place him seocnd best of the ones playing. Favre is the best in my mind. Bardy is coming along great, but this is only his 4th year. He has great potential but I want to wait till he's been in the league a while.

Manning is putting together the kind of numbers that put him in the potentially greatest category. If he does, sometime in the next dozen years, win a title, he'll go right into that top tier.

PS
 

Can we all just have the common decency to agree that Martz will somehow mismanage this game tonight?

Man how I wish there was about 13.7 feet of snow on the ground at Lambeau right now... :D
 

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