Nimble Strike, Careful attack, Twin Strike

[Plane Sailing]

Or allow you to add your STR/DEX modifier as damage, unlike twin strike?

This sounds the best bet to me (although I've not run the numbers to see how it works out yet, of course)

 

[Psikus]

Or allow you to add your STR/DEX modifier as damage, unlike twin strike?

I think adding WIS modifier as damage would make careful attack an interesting power. Most of the time it will do less damage than a basic attack, but with the right stats, the difference could be kept within 1-2 points. Losing a couple points of damage for a +2 to hit is a great deal. Losing your full STR/DEX bonus, not so much.

Of course, with this modification twin strike would still be better, but I really think ts is a bit too good.

 

[Mengu]

For a ranger with Careful Attack and Twin Strike, for both attacks to be meaningful choices, there needs to be around a +4 or +5 difference between the two. If they deemed the +4 on Careful attack to be too powerful, I don't understand how no penalty on Twin Strike isn't too powerful. If Twin Strike is good as is, then Careful attack should have a +4 or +5. The math is really not that complicated for this one.

The other option to bring Careful Attack up to the level of Twin Strike, would be to increase its damage. Even then, against your quarry, Twin Strike is better until you need 15's or higher to hit, at which point careful attack becomes better. Since a ranger will typically attack their quarry, not having Twin Strike would be like chopping your arm off.

So if Twin Strike is supposed to be the main feature of the ranger class that every ranger will pick up, why is it one of 4 options for an at will power as opposed to a class feature? I realize certain builds for other classes have such obvious choices as well, but for ranger regardless of whether you are melee or ranged, you want Twin Strike. At least for something like Paladin you pick different powers depending on whether you are charisma based or strength based, and some classes like the Wizard have much more meaningful choices to make for at-will powers.

 

[Branduil]

I like the idea of letting you add your modifier to Careful Attack.

 

[Cadfan]

Trying to make Careful Attack and Twin Strike balance is a mugs game. The problem is that they both perform the same function- increasing accuracy. This means that no matter how you adjust the numbers, it will be possible to use a particular set of character stats and a particular target armor class and analyze which power is superior. The "meaningful choice" then becomes a predetermined outcome based upon your character stats and upon what you think the "typical" armor class is likely to be.

Its as if we had two wizard spells, one of which did 1d6+Int+Wis damage, and the other which did 1d10+Int damage. The only meaningful choice would be, "Have I got, or am I likely to get, a +2 wisdom bonus?"

Instead, these abilities need to actually do different things. Once something non-numeric is added into the mix, the ability to calculate the correct choice is removed. Choosing between the two is then a judgment call.

Personally, I'd do something like this- leave Twin Strike as is. Change Careful Attack so that it does full regular damage, grants +4 to your attack roll, but prevents you from moving.

Careful attack is likely to have more damage output under those rules, but it stops you from moving around, which limits the efficiency of Hunter's Quarry and makes you easier to hunt down. Twin Strike keeps you mobile and a little more accurate than normal, but cuts your damage. Which is superior? Its not mathematically determinable because how much you need to move isn't a number. Its a judgment call, as it should be.

 

[KevinF]

Be careful to avoid looking at carefull attack's value with simple mathematics.

What about the target's defensive abilities? If you were fighting a lot of goblins, you might want to avoid missing them with Melee attacks as much as possible, because that allows them to use their goblin shiftyness and shift out of reach. It could not only nuetralize your second attack with twin strike, but it would potentially deny your allies a chance to attack them as well.

I have no idea how many monsters have abilities that are triggered by missed attacks, but if there are enough, that could justify careful attack as a situational attack, similar to nimble strike.

 

[Styracosaurus]

....

Personally, I'd do something like this- leave Twin Strike as is. Change Careful Attack so that it does full regular damage, grants +4 to your attack roll, but prevents you from moving.

...

How does this compare to higher level abilities? Off the top of my head, I know that fighter has a level 3 encounter power that allows +4 to hit with regular damage.

I like the idea, but is it in line with a level 1 at will across the board?

 

[Cadfan]

I don't know how it compares. It was mostly an example to show how the addition of a non-numeric aspect to an at will power puts a stop to the problems listed in this thread. You could change the numbers, or do something else.

 

[Mengu]

Trying to make Careful Attack and Twin Strike balance is a mugs game. The problem is that they both perform the same function- increasing accuracy.

I think I mostly agree, though I'd say increasing expected damage, rather than increasing accuracy.

I like sacrificing something for accuracy, but sacrificing move seems to be counterproductive to the goal of more dynamic combat. I'm guessing that's why they went with sacrificing damage, but sacrificing damage for an attack bonus is like not doing anything to a basic attack. It's certainly not an interesting choice.

Maybe take a penalty like -2 to defenses? You are standing still while you take careful aim, making yourself an easier target. That probably wouldn't be very popular for the melee build though. I also don't particularly like the idea of people choosing a penalty for a power.

Maybe there needs to be something completely different in place of Careful Attack.

 

[Cadfan]

I think I mostly agree, though I'd say increasing expected damage, rather than increasing accuracy.

You say tomato, I say tomahto...

I like sacrificing something for accuracy, but sacrificing move seems to be counterproductive to the goal of more dynamic combat. I'm guessing that's why they went with sacrificing damage, but sacrificing damage for an attack bonus is like not doing anything to a basic attack. It's certainly not an interesting choice.

Right. Accuracy = damage. The only time this isn't true is when there are strategic reasons for you to need at least some damage right now (enemy has 2 hp, you want to drop him immediately) or where you need a lot of damage or else there's no point in damaging the enemy at all (you have 2 hp and your enemy has 30).

Maybe take a penalty like -2 to defenses? You are standing still while you take careful aim, making yourself an easier target. That probably wouldn't be very popular for the melee build though. I also don't particularly like the idea of people choosing a penalty for a power.

I don't think the melee people need access to this power. The double attack power is going to be their "standard attack." Careful Strike stops them from using their second weapon, which undermines the entire point of having it. They need something that uses both weapons. Meanwhile, the mental image of an archer who pauses, holds his breath slightly, and unleashes a perfectly aimed arrow is too good to pass up. My solution would be to make Dual Strike a two blade only ability, then power up careful shot a little and make it an archery only ability. I'd want to power it up to at least equal the rogue's Piercing Strike. Heck, it could be a cut and paste of Piercing Strike, and I'd be happy.

Maybe there needs to be something completely different in place of Careful Attack.

Or that.