D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

WoW won't have that level of "Jesus really George?!" that Fire & Blood does because it's an actual novel, rather than an in-universe historical account, so atrocities will be spaced much further apart, and given a lot more context. Definitely agree that Fire & Blood is a bit "bloody hell, really?" at times.

But there are literally hordes of 20-something BookTokers and BookTubers who loved Fire & Blood, like genuinely young people (and mostly women!) who don't seem to see a problem with that even.

Agree re: A Dream of Spring, if we see that, it'll be "from the notes of GEORGE R R MARTIN" with a "Writing by SA Corey" beneath it.
You make a point - Fire & Blood is a different type of book. What would take chapters in ASOIAF happens in a few pages.

Right? I was shocked by the also. Like, no, we do not need any of these new people, George, I don't believe they are going to make the story better!
It's telling that the show ignored a large portion of them.

Science fiction, fantasy, and horror movies were a big influence.
If I could go back and change Appendix N, I would love to see what movies inspired D&D. We know Hammer's Dracula movies would be on that list, for example.

I'm not as confident as he is 76 years old and this is his pattern. ;)

I swear, every time he makes a non-update, it's just worse and worse.
 

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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
I am just adding my two cents.

I understand why there isn't an Appendix N. I am not going to bemoan the lack of it.

That said, I am going to pour one out for its absence. Because the original Appendix N made me go and seek out a lot of wonderful material that I might not have otherwise read. And I am so happy I did, because it kindled a fire in me to devour even more.

Sure, in today's era, Appendix N might not be needed. But I will always carry a torch for the original Appendix N, and what it meant to me.

c06920a0-b5e4-4cdd-b583-020294898b21.gif
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
As far as Martin goes, I just wonder who will finish the series after he passes. Because it will get finished at that point: too much money involved otherwise. I don't expect to see any more books in the series until that happens, sadly. I'd really like to read them but he has other interests and he doesn't owe me anything.
 

Gradine

🏳️‍⚧️ (she/her) 🇵🇸
That didn't exist with Gygax's appendix. This is what Gygax said about his inspirational sources.

1e DMG Appendix N:

"...In some cases I cite specific works, in others, I simply recommend all their fantasy writing to you. From such sources, as well as well as just about any other imaginative writing or screenplay you will be able to pluck kernels from which grow the fruits of exciting campaigns. Good reading!"

He literally tells you that just about any imaginative writing or screenplay out there will have stuff for DM inspiration. That's the exact opposite of, "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS."
I don't know that Gygax was specifically doing that with the appendix, but he definitely had opinions about how the game was meant to be run throughout the book in general, and it did help turn the appendix into a sledgehammer for gatekeepers to use. Gygax is the authority, if you don't run the game the way he tells you to run, if your games don't look like the stories listed in appendix N, etc. etc. you're doing it wrong.

Which absolutely happened and still happens, though not to nearly same extent (what once was gatekeeping has been reduced to old men yelling at clouds).

I don't think the original appendix N was bad or that a new appendix N would be bad either, just that there was historical gatekeeping and it did rely, on part, on what was in appendix N
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend, he/him
I am just adding my two cents.

I understand why there isn't an Appendix N. I am not going to bemoan the lack of it.

That said, I am going to pour one out for its absence. Because the original Appendix N made me go and seek out a lot of wonderful material that I might not have otherwise read. And I am so happy I did, because it kindled a fire in me to devour even more.

Sure, in today's era, Appendix N might not be needed. But I will always carry a torch for the original Appendix N, and what it meant to me.

View attachment 386682
I would love to see a blog post or some such from game designers going over their personal recommendations.
 

Gradine

🏳️‍⚧️ (she/her) 🇵🇸
Likewise, I love when RPGs give you their inspirations. I've discovered so many hidden gems that way. In a lot of ways, it shows how deeply personal RPG creation can be. How much gets distilled into a single game from books and other media.
The original Eberron Campaign Guide's had a list that really helps sell the tone (or more accurately, tones) of the setting in a way that doesn't always come off the page otherwise.
 

Voadam

Legend
If I could go back and change Appendix N, I would love to see what movies inspired D&D. We know Hammer's Dracula movies would be on that list, for example.

I know for my campaigns I generally say as a DM I go for a tone of pulpy action with some humor and horror at a general PG-13 level and use Army of Darkness as my exemplar for the tone and feel I try for. I know I've used that as a specific reference in the session zero beginning of at least the last two campaigns I started (two different groups) running 5e versions of the Pathfinder Carrion Crown and Iron Gods adventure paths.
 

Scribe

Legend
That said, I am going to pour one out for its absence. Because the original Appendix N made me go and seek out a lot of wonderful material that I might not have otherwise read. And I am so happy I did, because it kindled a fire in me to devour even more.

How absolutely sad it is, that we all 'get why it wasnt done' and yet?

Sad Sponge Bob GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants
 

I don't know that Gygax was specifically doing that with the appendix, but he definitely had opinions about how the game was meant to be run throughout the book in general, and it did help turn the appendix into a sledgehammer for gatekeepers to use. Gygax is the authority, if you don't run the game the way he tells you to run, if your games don't look like the stories listed in appendix N, etc. etc. you're doing it wrong.
I think this is an pretty silly complaint.

This is like complaining that someone hit you with the meat tenderizer you keep in the draw for the chicken, and blaming either the person who bought the meat tenderizer, or the person who designed it, rather than the absolute lunatic who hit you with it!

It's not normal or reasonable to expect, especially not in 1979, a list of inspirations, which was explicitly non-exhaustive and which undeniably and explicitly stated you could and should be inspired by your own things, to be used as a weapon. It would have been very strange to think that. So blaming Appendix N is clearly not logical nor reasonable.

As for Gygax's authority, you're re-writing history - he's been viewed very differently at different times, and hasn't been regarded as an actual authority since, like, literally the 1990s. How do I know that? Because I remember the discussions - by the time the internet even existed, the whole "Gygax is an authority" thing was completely in shambles. Most D&D players kind of sneered at him - it wasn't until 3E, weirdly, that there was some odd rehabilitation of him and his "opinions".

And Gygax's opinions on the game were multifarious and ever-changing! He wrote entire books about his opinions. For example: Role-Playing Mastery (1987), and then, by the early 2000s at the latest had completely disavowed that very same book and said he was talking nonsense when he wrote it!

Further, the people who try and use Gygax or Appendix N as a "sledgehammer" have always been a joke. And I do mean always. Let's not trying and re-write history and pretend there was ever a period in RPG history where such people were taken seriously. Well not after about 1993 at least, I can't speak to before that. And 1993 was, I'm sorry, 31 years ago. So what's even really the complaint? That some numpty 20+ years ago got mad because your game wasn't sufficiently like Three Hearts and Three Lions?

Which absolutely happened and still happens, though not to nearly same extent (what once was gatekeeping has been reduced to old men yelling at clouds).
It was already "old men yelling at clouds" in 1993! No-one took that trash seriously! Literally when 15-year-old me got on the World Wide Web in 1993, and started looking for D&D stuff, one of the first things I found was a discussion how dumb Gary Gygax was and how bad his ideas were. Something that I completely agreed with! Why? Because I'd read Role-Playing Mastery, in like 1991, and even aged 13, I was capable of realizing "Holy crap, the guy who wrote this is a terrible DM and should never be let near an RPG!", and I was well aware that man was Gary Gygax. I participated in countless forums, wrote and read unholy amounts of posts, and in none of those was Gygax seen as an authority or someone to be emulated. Indeed, he was regarded with a lot less positivity than Dave Arneson.

The worst I can say is that, for a brief period sometime after 3E came out - and by a brief period I genuinely mean like, at most 5-ish years, there was some weird revisionism where people suddenly started pretending Gygax (who was, admittedly, a more beneficent figure by then, and then of course he died) was totally righteous, but then people started finding stuff like the posts where he said genocide was totally cool and based and Lawful Good, and that kind of wore off again. But that was just him regarded more positively, not his ideas/suggestions.

So even then, anyone trying to say "You need to run your game like Gygax ran his!" or "You need to be inspired solely by Appendix N!" was not taken seriously. People arguing that were laughed at, just like they were in the 1990s.

Now maybe if you were in some sort of OSR compound, locked up and surrounded by grim-faced men with bastard swords and chainmail, maybe then you saw that "Gygax was right!" sentiment taken seriously - but it never was here, nor RPG.net, nor Shadowland.org, nor that any of the other sites I used to visit, nor was it taken seriously in person (not by people my age anyway).
 

As far as Martin goes, I just wonder who will finish the series after he passes. Because it will get finished at that point: too much money involved otherwise. I don't expect to see any more books in the series until that happens, sadly. I'd really like to read them but he has other interests and he doesn't owe me anything.
It'd be shocked if it wasn't SA Corey or maybe just Daniel Abraham, who is a real protege of Martin. If he even semi-willingly hands off the baton to anyone, it'll be them or him.
 

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