D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

[SteveC]

Looking at the 2014 page, which I haven't looked at in about 10 years since I haven't cracked my PHB since a first couple of reads, I'm amazed. There is so much stuff on that list that I would not expect to see in 2024. I would bet that new 5E players have missed about 90% of it. I was just a kid when the AD&D DMG came out, and a number of the books it referenced were a bit ... ahem ... spicy for my age, but I read pretty much all of them. And the classic works pretty much are responsible for me being an English Major in college.

I would be really interested in seeing a list from 2024. Are we still going to suggest Howard and Lovecraft? I would be a terrible person to suggest books from the last 10 years but I'd love to see what people have as a suggestion. I'd say a bunch of YA lit would be on that list, and since I read none of it, that would mean I shouldn't be making any lists. I mean I'd say "go read all of Roger Zelazny's books" and then sadly lower my head as everyone said ,"who?"

I see it as a missed opportunity.

 

[Cadence]

But why does it need to be part of a core
And even from the defenders of appendix, I have not read a single comment in this thread "yeah, I took inspiration from Appendix N. I had no idea for my own, read some stuff and it inspired my campaign". Everyone is like "its interesting, I got some nice books out of it - never used it in my campaign though".

The bolded part seems odd?

As far as the rest, I've used a lot of Dying Earth things since I read it, and also taken some inspiration from Fafhrd and the Mouser.

I might have read the former anyway since Glen Cook had a short story in the Dying Earth Anthology a few years ago to lead me to it, but am not sure I would have ever gotten to Fafhrd and the Mouser otherwise.

 

[Voadam]

As I said earlier, Elric and Amber stuff inspired a lot of thematic and house rule use of alignment as Cosmic Forces that interact with people and the world that I used in my 3e games that I do not think I would have thought of from just reading the alignment sections of 1e, B/X, and 3e alone.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

That's a big "IF" there, lol.

I don't think he has a lot of drive to finish it, after his ending got torn apart by yhe fandom and he can still plausibly blame the showrunners.

It really is a big IF. GRRM has talked about how when the series is done, no one will care about how long it took. However, if it's never finished, people will certainly care in the long run.

The rest of his books in the series remain very popular. I wouldn't worry if the new one(which won't ever happen) is in the same tone as the others.

I think eventually we'll see the Winds of Winter. A Dream of Spring, pffft, not a chance.

Back on topic, I will say that I wouldn't object to yet another Appendix N; I do always appreciate when a game talks about and wears its inspiration on its sleeve. I think the issues in the past have come from the history of the appendix as Gygax's "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS"-style sledgehammer, which I really don't see as a huge problem with the game as it currently exists. Gatekeepers are gonna keep gatekeeping, but those are mostly on the fringes these days, and WAY too busy yelling about pink space marines or whatever to even notice at this point.

Likewise, I love when RPGs give you their inspirations. I've discovered so many hidden gems that way. In a lot of ways, it shows how deeply personal RPG creation can be. How much gets distilled into a single game from books and other media.

I mean, the reaction to Dance with Dragons wasn't spectacular either

No, it wasn't. I remember being shocked that he was expanding the narrative even further when he should've been tightening it.

True but I think that's more down to decline in quality and frankly messy storytelling rather than a tonal mismatch with the era it was published in. House of the Dragon, which is anything is meaner-spirited than most of GoT seems to be doing fine despite some very clumsy storytelling. And indeed Max seem to be trying to make several more GoT prequels/sequels happen at any given moment (Dunk and Egg is fairly far along).

I don't think the tropes will be the problem - ASoIaF has a huge audience, and they'll be 15 years older, but they're not suddenly going to find tropes unacceptable that they thought were cool before. I think if WoW has a poor reception, 15+ years of hype (because honestly I don't expect it before 2026 at the absolute outside) and GRRM just bringing in a million more side-characters no-one gives a shake of a lamb's tail about, but who take up chapter after chapter will be the major negatives. That and WoW isn't even supposed to be the last one, goddamit.

See, I don't know about that. I was a huge fan of ASOIAF, read the books multiple times and everything. Yet when I read Fire & Blood, it didn't hit the same for me. I'm off grimdark in general, but reading three different acts of violence against women in two pages struck a sour note for me.

Will I pick up Winds of Winter when it comes out? Probably. But yeah, A Dream of Spring isn't happening. I half expect him to divide one of the two remaining books into two, anyway.

 

[Cadence]

I don't doubt that this is true when we're talking about the kinds of colleges that most people think of when they think of American universities; your Ivy Leagues, your big research one schools, your large private institutions; the type of schools you have to try to get into. I work at a state school. My wife has spent the past decade-plus working in basic needs at this state school. I know, for a fact, that at the very least many of our students, (that is, the reference point that I am using to speak to the where the youth are these days) are struggling with food and housing; and this is a problem endemic at most underfunded state schools, which is... probably the largest subset of colleges out there. And even Harvard has houseless students.

My point isn't that college students aren't, as a rule, generally from better off backgrounds. My point is that there are many, many young adults growing up poverty that are also going to colleges. And that at lot of schools, those students are the majority.

I was curious - since the R1 University I'm at differs massively from the three school districts it is closest to (some of which have poverty rates as measured in the state of 75% or higher).

Anyway (granted from 2019), here is the percent of Undergraduates in Poverty: A Rising Share of Undergraduates Are From Poor Families, Especially at Less Selective Colleges

Knowing how many of them work, the number at "Private for profit" schools is sad.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

See, I don't know about that. I was a huge fan of ASOIAF, read the books multiple times and everything. Yet when I read Fire & Blood, it didn't hit the same for me. I'm off grimdark in general, but reading three different acts of violence against women in two pages struck a sour note for me.

WoW won't have that level of "Jesus really George?!" that Fire & Blood does because it's an actual novel, rather than an in-universe historical account, so atrocities will be spaced much further apart, and given a lot more context. Definitely agree that Fire & Blood is a bit "bloody hell, really?" at times.

But there are literally hordes of 20-something BookTokers and BookTubers who loved Fire & Blood, like genuinely young people (and mostly women!) who don't seem to see a problem with that even.

Agree re: A Dream of Spring, if we see that, it'll be "from the notes of GEORGE R R MARTIN" with a "Writing by SA Corey" beneath it.

No, it wasn't. I remember being shocked that he was expanding the narrative even further when he should've been tightening it.

Right? I was shocked by the also. Like, no, we do not need any of these new people, George, I don't believe they are going to make the story better!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Knowing how many of them work, the number at "Private for profit" schools is sad.

Oh wow that is actually worse than I thought, damn. Thanks for finding the actual figures when I couldn't.

 

[Cadence]

Back on topic, I will say that I wouldn't object to yet another Appendix N; I do always appreciate when a game talks about and wears its inspiration on its sleeve. I think the issues in the past have come from the history of the appendix as Gygax's "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS"-style sledgehammer, which I really don't see as a huge problem with the game as it currently exists. Gatekeepers are gonna keep gatekeeping, but those are mostly on the fringes these days, and WAY too busy yelling about pink space marines or whatever to even notice at this point.

Does Gygax do that in Appendix N though? To me it read like he was saying what inspired him in particular, that his list leaves out the comics and movies and many books that did, and then saying folks can get inspiration from anywhere. (Boldfacing above and below are mine).

"Inspiration for all the fantasy work I have done stems directly from the love my father showed when I was a tad, for he spent many hours telling me stories he made up as he went along, tales of cloaked old men who could grant wishes, of magic rings and enchanted swords, or wicked sorcerors [sic] and dauntless swordsmen.

Then too, countless hundreds of comic books went down, and the long-gone EC ones certainly had their effect. Science fiction, fantasy, and horror movies were a big influence. In fact, all of us tend to get ample helpings of fantasy when we are very young from fairy tales such as those written by the Brothers Grimm and Andrew Lang. This often leads to reading books of mythology, paging through bestiaries, and consultation of compilations of the myths of various lands and peoples.

Upon such a base I built my interest in fantasy, being an avid reader of all science fiction and fantasy literature since 1950.

The following authors were of particular inspiration to me. In some cases I cite specific works, in others, I simply recommend all of their fantasy writing to you. From such sources, as well as any other imaginative writing or screenplay, you will be able to pluck kernels from which will grow the fruits of exciting campaigns. Good reading!

<insert list>

The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, R. E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H. P. Lovecraft, and A. Merritt; but all of the above authors, as well as many not listed, certainly helped to shape the form of the game. For this reason, and for the hours of reading enjoyment, I heartily recommend the works of these fine authors to you.

- E. Gary Gygax, 1979, AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, p. 224"

 

[Maxperson]

I think the issues in the past have come from the history of the appendix as Gygax's "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS"-style sledgehammer, which I really don't see as a huge problem with the game as it currently exists.

That didn't exist with Gygax's appendix. This is what Gygax said about his inspirational sources.

1e DMG Appendix N:

"...In some cases I cite specific works, in others, I simply recommend all their fantasy writing to you. From such sources, as well as well as just about any other imaginative writing or screenplay you will be able to pluck kernels from which grow the fruits of exciting campaigns. Good reading!"

He literally tells you that just about any imaginative writing or screenplay out there will have stuff for DM inspiration. That's the exact opposite of, "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS."

 

[Maxperson]

I think eventually we'll see the Winds of Winter. A Dream of Spring, pffft, not a chance.

I'm not as confident as he is 76 years old and this is his pattern.

George R.R. Martin Has Jokes!

The author cracked wise about the one thing he'd change about his books—and we're not laughing.

www.esquire.com