D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

[Vaalingrade]

So you are not arguing that appendix n encourages gatekeeping? Because I could swear you said that it did.

I am arguing that, but encouraging something is not the same as including it and I'm not going to play rhetorical games trying to force that to mean something it doesn't. We're done.

 

[Voadam]

Reading suggestion lists are neat, but again going back to the 2024 PHB and DMG...there really isn't any room for it.

The 5e 14 DMG had one page with art for DM suggested reading for DMing tips and running games. The 5e 14 PH which has an appendix for general D&D inspiration stuff was one page. The original 1e appendix N was less than a full length column on a two-column page.

 

[Parmandur]

The 5e 14 DMG had one page with art for DM suggested reading for DMing tips and running games. The 5e 14 PH which has an appendix for general D&D inspiration stuff was one page. The original 1e appendix N was less than a full length column on a two-column page.

Yea, they didn't have that much room in the new books: they are 64 pages longer than the 2024 books, and much more tightly packed with game information.

 

[Voadam]

Yea, they didn't have that much room in the new books: they are 64 pages longer than the 2024 books, and much more tightly packed with game information.

Since we are talking one page out of 384 for the 24 PH and they found room for that one page in the smaller 14 PH I think it is more a shifting of priorities of what they wanted to include rather than a space issue. 24 just chose to focus on other stuff the way D&D in its core books from 2e to 4e did as well which did not include inspiration lists in the core books.

The inspirational lists are nice but not necessary and they wanted to get in more other stuff like more subclasses in the core PH so they cut some things to make room in addition to expanding the page count.

 

[Parmandur]

Since we are talking one page out of 384 for the 24 PH and they found room for that one page in the smaller 14 PH I think it is more a shifting of priorities of what they wanted to include rather than a space issue. 24 just chose to focus on other stuff the way D&D in its core books from 2e to 4e did as well which did not include inspiration lists in the core books.

The inspirational lists are nice but not necessary and they wanted to get in more other stuff like more subclasses in the core PH so they cut some things to make room in addition to expanding the page count.

Right, as I said the newer books are more packed with important game material, like the Rules Cyclopedia and How to Play sectiona, or the expanded PHB bestiary.

 

[Gradine]

No. Sorry. The fact, and I emphasize that word, is the majority of US university students come from better-off backgrounds relative to Americans in general. Sure, they then get absolutely mega-loaded with debt, which is a huge societal problem (and a problem for them), but that's different from their backgrounds, and as a whole are absolutely more isolated from societal problems than the average American whilst they are at university.

For example:

How Wealth, Not Just Income, Shapes College Access and Success

For decades, income has been the lens through which researchers and policymakers examine economic inequities in higher education. However, a new report by the Institute for Higher Education Policy explores an underexamined factor in college access and success: wealth. Breaking the Cycle of...

www.ihep.org

I don't want to get into the politics of this as this isn't the right place for it, but it's just not right to claim college students are some sort of even/egalitarian/meritocratic cross-section of US society (which appears to be your position - I can't see any other position you could be advocating for if you're denying they're typically from better-off backgrounds, unless it was that they were typically from worse-off backgrounds, but that seems unlikely to be your position, especially as it's obviously untrue).

There are obviously also plenty of students who are from less-wealthy backgrounds (like my wife - who is American - who came from a single-parent family, and had zero support from her extended family, even active hostility, to her going to university), but as a whole, university students in the US represent, for perhaps obvious reasons, the wealthier segment of the population.

I don't doubt that this is true when we're talking about the kinds of colleges that most people think of when they think of American universities; your Ivy Leagues, your big research one schools, your large private institutions; the type of schools you have to try to get into. I work at a state school. My wife has spent the past decade-plus working in basic needs at this state school. I know, for a fact, that at the very least many of our students, (that is, the reference point that I am using to speak to the where the youth are these days) are struggling with food and housing; and this is a problem endemic at most underfunded state schools, which is... probably the largest subset of colleges out there. And even Harvard has houseless students.

My point isn't that college students aren't, as a rule, generally from better off backgrounds. My point is that there are many, many young adults growing up poverty that are also going to colleges. And that at lot of schools, those students are the majority.

 

[Gradine]

Back on topic, I will say that I wouldn't object to yet another Appendix N; I do always appreciate when a game talks about and wears its inspiration on its sleeve. I think the issues in the past have come from the history of the appendix as Gygax's "THIS IS WHAT D&D IS"-style sledgehammer, which I really don't see as a huge problem with the game as it currently exists. Gatekeepers are gonna keep gatekeeping, but those are mostly on the fringes these days, and WAY too busy yelling about pink space marines or whatever to even notice at this point.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My point isn't that college students aren't, as a rule, generally from better off backgrounds.

Ok, cool, because my point was that they were, so I guess we agree.

My point is that there are many, many young adults growing up poverty that are also going to colleges. And that at lot of schools, those students are the majority.

I'd be interested to know which schools those were, because with the limited number of state colleges I'm familiar with (mostly coastal states and Indiana), I don't think the majority of students are from impoverished backgrounds in any cases, and that's something that's been discussed as an issue. Obviously please don't doxx yourself/your wife, just skip whichever one(s) you're at!

Also back on the point re: cozy, I find it a little hard to square your claim that it's "more popular than ever" with the fact that in terms of successful media, we are unquestionably trending away from cozy for older teens and young adults, whether it's videogames, music, TV, or the like, and certainly if we look at Twitch channels popular with those age groups (and a bit younger, concerningly), they're actually remarkably nasty, like way nastier than we were being on the internet at that age (and we weren't exactly nice!). The cozy lifestyle and chat people seem to be primarily watched by younger Millennials (i.e. late 20s through mid 30s). I can't see how it's possible for "cozy" to be the dominant aesthetic when it's absolutely not reflected by any media consumed by that age group. For every Stardew Valley that sells 30m copies, there's a Witcher 3 selling 50m copies, and a GTAV selling 200m copies, and a Call of Duty selling 500m copies, and so on.

 

[Gradine]

And that is one of the things I wonder about, if GRRM ever finishes Winds of Winter. The state of fantasy has changed dramatically since the last time he released a book; how will people receive it? A lot of the tropes haven't aged well.

I mean, the reaction to Dance with Dragons wasn't spectacular either

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, the reaction to Dance with Dragons wasn't spectacular either

True but I think that's more down to decline in quality and frankly messy storytelling rather than a tonal mismatch with the era it was published in. House of the Dragon, which is anything is meaner-spirited than most of GoT seems to be doing fine despite some very clumsy storytelling. And indeed Max seem to be trying to make several more GoT prequels/sequels happen at any given moment (Dunk and Egg is fairly far along).

And that is one of the things I wonder about, if GRRM ever finishes Winds of Winter. The state of fantasy has changed dramatically since the last time he released a book; how will people receive it? A lot of the tropes haven't aged well.

I don't think the tropes will be the problem - ASoIaF has a huge audience, and they'll be 15 years older, but they're not suddenly going to find tropes unacceptable that they thought were cool before. I think if WoW has a poor reception, 15+ years of hype (because honestly I don't expect it before 2026 at the absolute outside) and GRRM just bringing in a million more side-characters no-one gives a shake of a lamb's tail about, but who take up chapter after chapter will be the major negatives. That and WoW isn't even supposed to be the last one, goddamit.