No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

[KDLadage]

Then I think you are trying to fill a nitch that has already been fileld. There are two (probably many more) OGL skill-based, generic RPGs out there that I have played (and enjoyed).

FUDGE is an open game, skill based, and extremely easy to teach. It is a bit course in its scale, and thus some old-timer RPGers are not fond of using it as a framework. I like it, myself. Have played it a lot and have enjoyed it as much (if not more) than many other more complex RPG systems. You can find more information about FUDGE HERE

Simply Roleplaying! is an open game, skill based, and very, very complete in the same sense that d20 and the rest are (and that many feel that FUDGE is not). The license is every bit as open as d20 and the game system itself is (in my opinion) just as good as d20's engine. I have played this game a few times, like it and (like d20) is available for fre on the web. Unlike d20, it is not divided into a hundred separate RTF files, it is a single professional looking PDF file. More information on Simply Roleplaying! can be found HERE.

So... as you can see, I am not sure what can be gained by removing the classes from d20 and making it a d20, classless, levelless system. And, if you ware talking about OGL only -- this, too, has been done and continues to be done.

Am I missing something you are attempting to do here?

 

[Zappo]

FUDGE is an open game, skill based, and extremely easy to teach. It is a bit course in its scale, and thus some old-timer RPGers are not fond of using it as a framework. I like it, myself. Have played it a lot and have enjoyed it as much (if not more) than many other more complex RPG systems. You can find more information about FUDGE HERE

Simply Roleplaying! is an open game, skill based, and very, very complete in the same sense that d20 and the rest are (and that many feel that FUDGE is not). The license is every bit as open as d20 and the game system itself is (in my opinion) just as good as d20's engine. I have played this game a few times, like it and (like d20) is available for fre on the web. Unlike d20, it is not divided into a hundred separate RTF files, it is a single professional looking PDF file. More information on Simply Roleplaying! can be found HERE.

That's more like it. I didn't know that FUDGE had an open license, and I wasn't even aware of the existance of PlainLabel Game System. So it seems that I was at least partially right; there is a place for an open skillbased system.

So... as you can see, I am not sure what can be gained by removing the classes from d20 and making it a d20, classless, levelless system.

No idea; that's not what I meant.

And, if you ware talking about OGL only -- this, too, has been done and continues to be done.

Good to know, my faith in the industry is restored.

Am I missing something you are attempting to do here?

I don't think so. I was just wondering why there seemed to be an unfilled niche, and I was slightly astonished at the claims that such a niche was irrelevant. It has also been interesting to see how many people automatically assumed that I was talking about D20, just because I said OGL. I feel that it's an association which can severely harm the OGL image in the long run (for example, how come that neither of the above mentioned systems use the OGL license - which was made by a big company with a large legal staff and is probably more reliable, if nothing else?)

 

[KDLadage]

About the OGL = d20 thing -- sorry about that; I guess I made that assumption as well.

I think you would like SR! (from the plainlable system) -- if you like d20, it is not much of a leap to it at all. And it works very well.

 

[bwgwl]

I'm not familiar with GURPS or HERO, but I have played d6 Star Wars and it was a skill system. It was much, much easier to create NPCs in that system, because it was a skill-based system. I could create NPCs on the fly, in the time it took me to decide how skilled I wanted the NPC to be.

i see your point, but that's not exactly what i was talking about. i can make up NPCs on the fly in d20 too (thief, 8 hp, +2 attack with short sword for 1d6, +1d6 sneak attack, Move Silently +7. done). i'm talking about actually sitting down and using the character creation rules to stat out NPCs. characters that are just as "legit" in the rules as the PCs. that can take longer in a totally wide-open system because of the choices available.

in d20, most of the choices are made for you as soon as you select a class and level. if i know the NPC i want is a 5th-level fighter, i don't need to decide how tough he's going to be or how skilled in combat -- those choices are already made (hit points, BAB). with less conscious decision-making on my part, the faster i can stat up an NPC.

now, i can understand that many people will not see less choices as advantageous. but when i run a game, i find that it can be.

 

[bwgwl]

for example, how come that neither of the above mentioned systems use the OGL license - which was made by a big company with a large legal staff and is probably more reliable, if nothing else?

probably because both FUDGE and PlainLabel were around for years before WOTC even considered doing the OGL. at the time those systems were being developed and made open, there was no industry initiative for the concept. they were forced to come up with their own open game licenses.

 

[Umbran]

Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Huh? Why not?

Simply put - because it suits some styles of play better than others. If it didn't, you wouldn't see so many things like the WP/VP, or "Grim and Gritty" combat systems. You wouldn't see so many gripes about how the systenm is inherently combat-oriented. You wouoldn't see so many poeple discuss how best to tone down the power and importance of magic items. If it were generic, you wouldn't need major rewrites for d20 Modern, d20CoC, or d20AnythingElse. You'd be more able to use it to fit many other worlds and genres without touching the mechanics at all.

Overall, the d20 system as written is best for fairly epic fantasy. It's pretty darned good at that, IMHO. The very fact that it is particularly good at one thing, though, tends to lead it away from being generic. D20 has a flavor, rather than being vanilla.

 

[LostSoul]

characters that are just as "legit" in the rules as the PCs. that can take longer in a totally wide-open system because of the choices available.

I think that takes less. You can give someone 20 ranks in Move Silently without having to worry about anything else - saves, hit points, attack bonus, whatever. If all you're concerned about is Move Silent, then that's all you have to deal with.

If something else comes up - say he gets Charm Person cast on him - then you decide, "How strong of a will does this guy have?" Once you answer that question, you have your score. Again, no need to take anything else into account.

 

[Zappo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Simply put - because it suits some styles of play better than others. If it didn't, you wouldn't see so many things like the WP/VP, or "Grim and Gritty" combat systems. You wouldn't see so many gripes about how the systenm is inherently combat-oriented. You wouoldn't see so many poeple discuss how best to tone down the power and importance of magic items. If it were generic, you wouldn't need major rewrites for d20 Modern, d20CoC, or d20AnythingElse. You'd be more able to use it to fit many other worlds and genres without touching the mechanics at all.

Uhm, the HP system is a part of D&D, not d20. Magic items are definitely D&D, and definitely not D20. All the gripes you've listed are about D&D, not d20. But I understand the confusion... if I wanted to accuse d20 of something, I'd accuse it of lacking a reference document which stated exactly what is d20. Currently, you can only get d20 rules in a particular flavor, be it Modern, D&D, CoC or whatever.

 

[Arnwyn]

As noted above - it's already been done. Examples were listed above, another one being FUZION (R. Talsorian). A few companies (including small pdf guys) make settings for it.

(And, IMNSHO, far better than any system listed previously - and my choice for modern/futuristic settings by a *long* shot. d20 still has it for fantasy settings, though.)

 

[Sanackranib]

skills poll

I prefer skills to classes plain and simple!