No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Want an OGL classless, levelless system?

  • Yes, because I like skill-based systems for certain settings.

    Votes: 47 38.2%
  • Yes, I don't particularly like skill-based but I recognize the need for an OGL skill-based system.

    Votes: 8 6.5%
  • Maybe, if the first setting developed for it is good.

    Votes: 16 13.0%
  • No, I like skill-based but I'm not interested in an OGL one.

    Votes: 9 7.3%
  • No, I prefer class/levels for every setting.

    Votes: 29 23.6%
  • Other (specify!).

    Votes: 14 11.4%

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Zappo said:
Uhm, the HP system is a part of D&D, not d20. Magic items are definitely D&D, and definitely not D20. All the gripes you've listed are about D&D, not d20.

I'm sorry. You're incorrect. Go take a look at The d20 System Reference Document. This is the definition of "d20 System". It includes the magic items. It includes Hit Points. It includes the spell definitions and spells per day of the basic classes, which help define the level of magic in the game.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Umbran said:


I'm sorry. You're incorrect. Go take a look at The d20 System Reference Document.
Did it.
The System Reference Document is a comprehensive toolbox consisting of rules, races, classes, feats, skills, various systems, spells, magic items, and monsters compatible with the d20 System version of Dungeons & Dragons and various other roleplaying games from Wizards of the Coast. You may consider this material Open Game Content under the Open Game License, and may use, modify, and distribute it.
Emphasis mine.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Zappo said:
Did it.Emphasis mine.

I fail to see your point. Of course, D&D is a d20 game. So using the SRD would make you compatible with it. That's the whole point of the d20 licence.

Go look at the licences. Go talk to the people over in the d20 Publisher's forum. The SRD is the definition of what is "d20".

You may be mistaking "the d20 system" for "the basic d20 task resolution mechanic". They aren't the same thing.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No classes, no levels, OGL - how does that sound?

Umbran said:
I fail to see your point.
The SRD isn't the reference document for d20. It's for the D&D variant of d20. This is fairly explictly declared by WotC themselves in the link you provided. Using it makes your games compatible with D&D.

AFAIK, there is no reference document for the d20 system, which is probably one of the reasons for which we can't even agree on what d20 is. Currently, you can only get d20 in some specialized form, a bit as if SJ didn't sell the GURPS core book and instead sold each GURPS setting with the subset or adaptation of the rules which goes well for that setting.

The result? OGL, D20, D&D, three different terms, for different things, but noone knows where one ends and the other begins.
 

Zappo said:
The SRD isn't the reference document for d20.

I concede that particular point. It is not officially the reference document for d20. The way things work out, it is rather unofficially such.

AFAIK, there is no reference document for the d20 system, which is probably one of the reasons for which we can't even agree on what d20 is.

Quite true - there is no document. That should say something to you...

Though we use the words "d20 System", in a large sense there is no such system. "d20" is a trademark, owned by WotC (and Hasbro, by extension). The definition of what is, or is not, d20 then comes from WotC.

If WotC wants to say that their Star Wars or Wheel of Time games are "d20", they may do so. They can also apply the trademark to miniatures, candy, or movies, if they so desire. Does candy follow a system?

In practice you'd probably only see them use the mark on games that are rather similar in many respects. Doing otherwise would erode the usefulness of the trademark. However, they make no claim that there's actually a system all such games that they produce follow.

WotC has also outlined what we may call "d20" in the d20 System Trademark Logo Guide. The licence includes, among many other things, the restriction that you must include words to the effect that your product requires the use the D&D Core Books. And you can't say that unless they actually do require it, or you have problems with false advertising. It also forbids you to change or extend the definitions of many game terms ("hit points" being one example). It also forbids description of what happens when you apply XP to a character.

How far from D&D are you going to be able to get without changing the definitions, and without describing what you do when using XP? Not very far. You cannot make it levelless, for example. WotC was fairly up front about the fact that the "d20 System" thing is really about selling copies of the D&D PHB and DMG.

The result? OGL, D20, D&D, three different terms, for different things, but noone knows where one ends and the other begins.

Oh, I don't think folks who have read and understood the various documents pertaining to these are under much confusion, unless they start getting loose with their terms. Nobody would confuse D&D and OGL with them sitting in front of them. The OGL is a legalese document, and looks nothign at all liike a game system.

Somebody might be a little confused about what parts of the D&D Core books are OGC, until they look at the SRD, and see how it says, "You may consider this material Open Game Content under the Open Game License, and may use, modify, and distribute it." If it's in the SRD, it's OGC. No confusion there.

There should be little confusion about being d20 either. It's d20 if WotC says so, or if you apply the d20 license. The whole reason to call a thing d20 is to say to a consumer that your product is close enough to D&D to use easily. So, that very probably means you are following a system very similar to what's in the SRD and D&D core books. If you can manage to legally use the license without being much like those games, more power to you.

And, in the end, we're still left back where we started - if it's d20, it isn't really generic. By nature of the licences "d20" for the most part equates to "D&D", which isn't generic
 
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It compleetly depends on the system. A skill based system with a good engine (I would prefer d100) and little to no tables would get me intrested. But a highly complex with louds of tables would not. This also counts for the magic system that would come with it, it needs also style, etc.

Making a system sounds easy but it involves a lot of work (especialy type work *sight*).

Laiyna
 

This whole topic is something near and dear to my heart. In my spare time (which is rapidly dwindling these days) I've tinkered with a system as an alternative to the d20 class-based system as we know today. It resolves issues like knowledge for people based on education and age at character start, "fixes" hit points while maintaining a system that allows you to use existing monster books without conversion, and allows the maximum number of permutations in class-like abilities. The magic system would be reworked. My version is not classless though. It retains four classes (the warrior, cleric, mage, and expert). Each class exists to give access to feats, which are gained every level. The feats are actually a lot of the class-based abilities that you see now, though I watered some of them down. As an example, the clerics ability to spontaneously cast healing spells is now a feat. Actually its two feats, one covering minor spells (levels 0-5) and one covering major spells (6-9). I've toyed with the idea of having spellcasting tied to having a particular # of ranks in spellcraft and knowledge (either arcana or religion).

I can build virtually any class in the PHB, duplicate the effects of any Prestige class by creating new feats accessible to people with the right skill set, and build wildly diverse character concepts without being tied to class abilities that arent appropriate to the concept. I'll spill more if people want to hear it.

Eric Price
Dragon Scale Counters, LLC
http://www.dragonscalecounters.com
 

Umbran said:
How far from D&D are you going to be able to get without changing the definitions, and without describing what you do when using XP? Not very far. You cannot make it levelless, for example. WotC was fairly up front about the fact that the "d20 System" thing is really about selling copies of the D&D PHB and DMG.
You can go far enough to remove hit points (SW), dependance on magic items (all but D&D), centrality of combat (CoC - I suppose, I haven't got it but I heard it's good). These are all really gripes with D&D, not with D20.

Certainly, the d20 system, whatever it is, has its limits. That's why I posted this thread to begin with. From that to calling it "not generic", I think there's quite a lot of space.
Oh, I don't think folks who have read and understood the various documents pertaining to these are under much confusion, unless they start getting loose with their terms. Nobody would confuse D&D and OGL with them sitting in front of them. The OGL is a legalese document, and looks nothign at all liike a game system.
No, certainly. Publishers and authors, and well-informed gamers, should know the facts well. I was thinking more about casual and not-so-casual gamers. Just look at how many people in this thread assumed that, because I mentioned OGL, I was proposing a D20 variant. Or at how the D20 system definition is so fuzzy that we can actually argue about what it is.
If you can manage to legally use the license without being much like those games, more power to you.
Chaosium did.
 

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