D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Hussar]

given darksun still use most of the core options it changes nothing past adding on top.

Seriously?

Hrm, no clerics or druids (at least, not at the outset, although they were kinda/sorta added back in), all of the PHB races entirely rewritten, equipment entirely rewritten, magic system that has a number of changes...

I'd call these some pretty significant changes.

 

[Remathilis]

given darksun still use most of the core options it changes nothing past adding on top.
worst case deemphasize things helps as elves do not always need to be core to a setting so to speak.

Dark Sun purists don't agree. They want the removal of bards, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, and warlocks (or heavy rewriting/modification of them) completely redone races, a whole new equipment list, and many racial options removed. It can only reflect the 2e version of Dark Sun, which itself rewrote much of the 2e PHB.

If Dark Sun was 90% PHB plus some new options and a few tweaks, I could get behind it and see it existing in 5e. But the purists who cannot fathom Dark Sun at all changing one note will scream bloody murder. So it's probably best as a separate game where it can define itself without taking a Sharpie to the PHB or left in the dust.

Better dead and forgotten than to live defiled, I guess.

 

[TwoSix]

Dark Sun purists don't agree. They want the removal of bards, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, and warlocks (or heavy rewriting/modification of them) completely redone races, a whole new equipment list, and many racial options removed. It can only reflect the 2e version of Dark Sun, which itself rewrote much of the 2e PHB.

If Dark Sun was 90% PHB plus some new options and a few tweaks, I could get behind it and see it existing in 5e. But the purists who cannot fathom Dark Sun at all changing one note will scream bloody murder. So it's probably best as a separate game where it can define itself without taking a Sharpie to the PHB or left in the dust.

Better dead and forgotten than to live defiled, I guess.

I would absolutely pay money for a combined PHB/Setting book, basically a one-stop shop for "Play Dark Sun". The core rules of 5e, outside of character creation/magic, don't actually take up that many pages. Just reprint them in a book with Dark Sun races, Dark Sun classes and subclasses, and a very different, Athasian-themed, spell list and equipment chapters.

 

[Remathilis]

I would absolutely pay money for a combined PHB/Setting book, basically a one-stop shop for "Play Dark Sun". The core rules of 5e, outside of character creation/magic, don't actually take up that many pages. Just reprint them in a book with Dark Sun races, Dark Sun classes and subclasses, and a very different, Athasian-themed, spell list and equipment chapters.

I argued for that above in a post for those esoteric settings people yearn for. I could see a Dragonlance or even a Ravenloft book done in a similar manner. Especially if fealty to the lore is more important than supporting the game holistically.

But that would make WotC basically create 3pp material that completes against it's own basic D&D material, because even if mechanically the stuff in Tasha is compatible with the Dark Sun PHB, I don't imagine many DMs would allow it. Which is why I'm willing to accept retcons and such to the lore to support the game as it is currently. I'd rather have Van Richten's Guide than have Ravenloft languish in obscurity in order to protect my childhood memories of it.

 

[TwoSix]

But that would make WotC basically create 3pp material that completes against it's own basic D&D material, because even if mechanically the stuff in Tasha is compatible with the Dark Sun PHB, I don't imagine many DMs would allow it. Which is why I'm willing to accept retcons and such to the lore to support the game as it is currently. I'd rather have Van Richten's Guide than have Ravenloft languish in obscurity in order to protect my childhood memories of it.

I personally don't give a flying fig about "fealty to lore". But my expectation is that the material in this hypothetical "Dark Sun 5e" would be fully compatible with a standard 5e game. If you want to play a psion or gladiator or thri-kreen in your FR game, why not?

To me, the exact reason to create setting PHBs is to create a rationale for expanding the overall base of options. People who don't want to mix and match aren't really my concern.

 

[Epic Meepo]

Yeah. That’s pure 3pp territory there. WotC is far too concerned with ensuring everything can be used with everything else.

Which is weird, because WotC's other game is explicitly designed to accommodate modes of play that exclude large amounts of available options.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Which is weird, because WotC's other game is explicitly designed to accommodate modes of play that exclude large amounts of available options.

I think they're remembering how TSR/2e ate its own legs with too many internally competing products. I'm not sure how true that takeaway is nor that it still applies, but you can't really blame them for worrying about it.

 

[Epic Meepo]

I think they're remembering how TSR/2e ate its own legs with too many internally competing products. I'm not sure how true that takeaway is nor that it still applies, but you can't really blame them for worrying about it.

You're right about that. And I certainly can't blame them for worrying.

On the other hand, I do think WotC's being overly conservative. If an occasional special edition reprint of the PHB is a viable product which doesn't compete with the baseline PHB, there should be a way to release a special edition variant of the PHB that's a viable product which doesn't compete with the baseline PHB.

It's not like having two books with different character options will suddenly invalidate all the adventures that are WotC's bread and butter. Heck, we already have multiple books with different character options in them. What difference does it make if we also throw a reprint of 20% of the PHB into the mix?

 

[jmartkdr2]

You're right about that. And I certainly can't blame them for worrying.

On the other hand, I do think WotC's being overly conservative. If an occasional special edition reprint of the PHB is a viable product which doesn't compete with the baseline PHB, there should be a way to release a special edition variant of the PHB that's a viable product which doesn't compete with the baseline PHB.

It's not like having two books with different character options will suddenly invalidate all the adventures that are WotC's bread and butter. Heck, we already have multiple books with different character options in them. What difference does it make if we also throw a reprint of 20% of the PHB into the mix?

I think they could make it work if each was part of a 'complete' set - i.e. you buy the Dark Sun Box Set, you get the Dark Sun phb and mm and dmg, one 1-20 campaign, and some minis and a map or two. The trick is to assume that WotC will never expand on this - that's the Dark Sun product. After that's out - they're done making official Dark Sun products. If you want to homebrew stuff for it, pull in stuff from other products, by 3pp, that's all on you. Like Legos, they're yours to play with however you want and can be combined with any other product line, as you see fit, but the company isn't going to get into that. Just do your thing.

The next product from that team is the Official Spelljammer Box Set. (Ravenloft would come before Dark Sun, but I digress).

Of course they'd need to sell the Dark Sun PHB as a separate product, and might as well license a line of player minis, but the main thing is to treat each as a singular product so they're not splitting the brand.

 

[Remathilis]

I think they could make it work if each was part of a 'complete' set - i.e. you buy the Dark Sun Box Set, you get the Dark Sun phb and mm and dmg, one 1-20 campaign, and some minis and a map or two. The trick is to assume that WotC will never expand on this - that's the Dark Sun product. After that's out - they're done making official Dark Sun products. If you want to homebrew stuff for it, pull in stuff from other products, by 3pp, that's all on you. Like Legos, they're you're to play with however you want and can be combined with any other product line, as you see fit, but the company isn't going to get into that. Just do your thing.

The next product from that team is the Official Spelljammer Box Set. (Ravenloft would come before Dark Sun, but I digress).

Of course they'd need to sell the Dark Sun PHB as a separate product, and might as well license a line of player minis, but the main thing is to treat each as a singular product so they're not splitting the brand.

That I think would have to be the trick; WotC's Presents: Dark Sun The RPG could work as a one and done product, but it would begin to cannibalize if they released multiple supplements for it. And multiply that by every setting you want them to support. TSRs biggest sin was trying to sell you supplements that only worked with certain other supplements.