D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Remathilis]

would be better to take inspiration that a straight update

You'd think, but that' what 5e Ravenloft did, and it caused riots.

 

[Mind of tempest]

You'd think, but that' what 5e Ravenloft did, and it caused riots.

yeah a different name would have helped, create distance.
different between an unworth adaptation and a decent homage can be just a new name

 

[Remathilis]

yeah a different name would have helped, create distance.
different between an unworth adaptation and a decent homage can be just a new name

Without making this yet-another-Ravenloft debate.

I like the fact they took the best parts of Ravenloft and made something unique with it. I don't think they could have done this using Innistrad or making some new horror setting. Any attempt to make something new would have been met with "why don't you just you Ravenloft?" So, they towed the line between new takes on classics and playing all the hits. Of course, the internet has amplified the echo chamber so that no amount of deviation from the original material would be accepted.

I feel the same is effectively true of all their settings to a greater-or-lesser degree. Eberron had the least amount of changes, but that number was still not-zero. Dragonlance and Planescape struck true but didn't add much. Spelljammer tried to incorporate a beloved part of 4e lore (the astral sea) and got pilloried for it. But at this point, I can't imagine anything WotC could do that would satisfy the diehard purists, so you gotta accept they will not be your target audience and aim for the widest possible net.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The short answer is 4e Dark Sun is not the same as 2e Dark Sun despite the fact that it covers a lot of the same ground as far as time period and such.

The long answer is: 2e Dark Sun is utterly defined by negative space. That is, Dark Sun is more known for what it changes than what it adds: It changes the fundamental way arcane magic works, changes or removes several classes, removes or alters every race in the PHB, completely removes the equipment list, and removes large swaths of the classic D&D monsters. 2e Dark Sun even changed ability score generation. When purists go on about how different Dark Sun is from D&D, THIS is what they are talking about. If it was as easy as adding a few new races, a subclass or three, and a psionics system to D&D and putting a varnish of desert-apocalypse aesthetic on it, it'd be done already.

There have been several attempts to design a Dark Sun with a more inclusive eye towards rules integration. Paizo did one in Dragon during 3e, WotC did their own in 4e. Both went over like a fart in church because they committed the unforgivable sin of not requiring you to take a hatchet to your PHB in order to play it. The 3e version found space for every class and most of the races in the PHB and Psionics Handbook, the 4e version did likewise. That was enough for Dark Sun purists to reject it outright. You can get a few to grumble and admit there were a few good ideas (such as warlock templars or genasi) but there has been an overall negative reaction because, again, its the negative space that was the attraction in the first place. Any attempt to make it work with the majority of class options in D&D defeats the purpose. Its not Dark Sun if half your PHB isn't invalidated.

And that's not how WotC design settings. It really never did. The Golden Age of "chuck the PHB, we're using these rules instead" died in 1997. Every setting WotC developed for 3e, 4e, and 5e (and including its officially licensed ones like Ravenloft and Dragonlance) moved toward at the bare minimum all the PHB classes and most of the races being included. WotC wants to minimize negative space in its design, and that's an anathema to Dark Sun. Personally, even if there wasn't any lore issues (and that's a whole different kettle of fish) Dark Sun's identity as being "not your daddy's D&D" was always going to doom any attempt at a revival.

Which is why, moreso than any other setting in WotC's stable, Dark Sun is the one that either needs to be its own separate (but compatible) game which defines everything according to its own design principles OR needs to be left in the vault with Birthright and Mystara. You cannot do it justice by just adding psionics and a few character options.

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

 

[tetrasodium]

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

The post you quoted is right about why the 2e version felt so different but off by enough about why the 4e version went over "like a fart in a church". The 4e darksun & 5e ravenloft tries to make those settings using the rules for a game designed for PoL/FR. Yes those things added were important in various ways, but that was often secondary to the critical need for the core rules being used themselves to feel different in ways that fit the setting. A darksun/ravenloft & mwybe eberron specific PHB could accomplish that by doing things like:

• replacing the spells chapter with new ones
• replacing the equipment chapter with new stuff
• Changing rules for rest/recovery/chargen/etc with setting appropriate versions

The 4e & 5e versions of those settings missed the important part of changing core elements to fit the setting.

 

[Remathilis]

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

I miss it like I miss those all night benders in college: I was young and stupid and I could do ridiculously bad things to my body and have a blast doing it, but nowadays I can't do that kinda stuff no more, my body and my responsibilities can't handle it. What TSR did to itself was terrible for itself but fun at the time, but now WotC has to make sure it's not going to excess.

 

[Distracted DM]

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

See for me 1997 was when I first started gaming, and from what I can remember (I was 11yo then) it was great and terrible. I loved 2e, from tabletop to BG1+2, it was never really "worn out" for me- we just moved on to what our Forever-DM was running, which when 3e came out was of course 3e.

I'd never want to go back to 3e. I would, and have once or twice dipped my toe back into, 2e again. Not to say 3e was terrible, it was the best D&D to us when it was the current edition.
But I am very much over all that hyper-simulationist crunch.

But there's that saying "you can never go home again." And it's probably accurate... running/playing 2e now wouldn't be the same as it was back then.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

I sometimes do too. But that's because of White Wolf's World of Darkness games, I do not miss AD&D one bit.

 

[Mind of tempest]

You don't know how much I miss gaming in 1997.

I can't image it back then mostly because I had not be born and all that.

See for me 1997 was when I first started gaming, and from what I can remember (I was 11yo then) it was great and terrible. I loved 2e, from tabletop to BG1+2, it was never really "worn out" for me- we just moved on to what our Forever-DM was running, which when 3e came out was of course 3e.

I'd never want to go back to 3e. I would, and have once or twice dipped my toe back into, 2e again. Not to say 3e was terrible, it was the best D&D to us when it was the current edition.
But I am very much over all that hyper-simulationist crunch.

But there's that saying "you can never go home again." And it's probably accurate... running/playing 2e now wouldn't be the same as it was back then.

wait people can go home?/s

 

[Hussar]

Do not miss 1997 at all. I moved on from that and frankly never looked back. But then, in 1997, I never bothered with published settings at all. I was proudly a homebrewer, which meant setting canon was meaningless to me.

I’ve bought and looked into more DnD lore in the last four or five years than I did the previous thirty- five. Other than using stuff to mine through of course.