D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Ruin Explorer]

dragonborn lack a setting presence they feel empty, this angers me they are popular on look and mechanic alone without the final part.

4E made a real effort to integrate both into not only the default setting, but also other settings, and whilst we'll never know how much was players looking for an excuse to be mad because they'd already decided they disliked 4E, people got REAL BIG MAD about it, hoooo boyyyyy.

It's a pity. I always integrate both into settings I run because I like both quite a lot. Though I will never run a setting where most dragonborns don't have tails nor most tieflings do. Dragonboobs can piss off too - Larian got that right.

 

[CreamCloud0]

but what would they even be, high and wood as at least some more presence, what is the difference between hill and mountain or lightfoot and stout something that feels more important?

while i do think they should have their significant species archetypes represented, hill/mountain and lightfoot/stout really aren't the pairs i'd pick as the initial themes, one of each of those maybe, hill dwarf with it's extra +1hp per level to emphasis dwarven toughness and halfling with lightfoot’s stealth (though I might add Lotusden’s timberwalk ability to it)

For the dwarven alternative i’d probably add something crafting focused, with expertise in an artisan’s tools, For halfling I’d make a more mundane equivalent to the mark of hospitality

 

[Scribe]

4E made a real effort to integrate both into not only the default setting, but also other settings, and whilst we'll never know how much was players looking for an excuse to be mad because they'd already, people got REAL BIG MAD about it, hoooo boyyyyy.

It's a pity. I always integrate both into settings I run because I like both quite a lot. Though I will never run a setting where most dragonborns don't have tails nor most tieflings do. Dragonboobs can piss off too - Larian got that right.

See, I hated the changes to force those integrations. Just letting them exist (and not look like 4e Tieflings!) is honestly enough. They need an origin obviously, but its not like one NEEDS a history of the evolution of the Dragonborn, to play a Dragonborn, and "So...your Grandpa..." is all you need for Tieflings.

 

[Yaarel]

The same way with magic elves and wood elves.

Exactly.

Be there a single versatile Elf species without subspecies. Let the player choose which spells.

Everything else is cultural backgrounds.


The main reason there were so many Elves in earlier editions was because of the ability improvements. Now the 2024 backgrounds handles these improvements, there is no reason separate subspecies.

Meanwhile, to have one subspecies improve Darkvision from 60 to 120, and an other move Speed 35, and yet an other to swap cantrips, seems insufficient to justify separate subspecies.

Swapping cantrips is something any 2024 Wizard can do, meaning it is learned, thus can be a background. Even Darkvision 120 can be a background, explained variously, such as anyone with Darkvision who grows up in the Underdark gains greater sensitivity in darkness. Barbarians increase Speed, so likewise learnable, and a background.

One Elf. We dont subspecies anymore. Different regional settings can have different elven cultures.

 

[Minigiant]

Given that Elves, are, if anything, more popular in Asia than they are in the West, this is 100% definitely not the reason.

They persist because they're skinny hot people who are better than everyone else.

Elves persist because video game, myth, and literature elves are usually Sexy and OP. Yes.

Doesn't translate well to games about equal individuals.

Dwarves persist because games always make they strong for simplistic characters. But that simplicity is why game devs always make them samey or boring.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

See, I hated the changes to force those integrations. Just letting them exist (and not look like 4e Tieflings!) is honestly enough. They need an origin obviously, but its not like one NEEDS a history of the evolution of the Dragonborn, to play a Dragonborn, and "So...your Grandpa..." is all you need for Tieflings.

The trouble is dragonborn feel very much like they should have a place in the history of the world, like a race like them couldn't exist and have made no impact unless they literally just appeared. Tieflings you can have just go back to their 2E roots, sure, but it doesn't work for dragonborn - you need either to work them into the history, or have some kind of recent situation that created them. Just saying "u can play 1 now i guess" isn't very satisfying when other races have storied histories and so on. They need something.

But that simplicity is why game devs always make them samey or boring.

They don't always. Varric Tethras rocks, but he is cool in part because he's not a generic standard dwarf. Part of the problem is that players who like dwarfs often embrace the anti-individualistic approach and if you have any dwarf who isn't bog-standard, they'll attract ten times as many negative or snarky comments as an elf or tiefling or whatever who is atypical, when discussed (the internet as my witness).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The same way with magic elves and wood elves.

Sure, and I don't think those need to be separate subspecies either. Though there at least one could argue that having different kind of innate magic is hereditary rather than cultural.

Edit: and TBH, in all these examples, it's about 80% geography.
The deal with wood elves is that they live in the woods.
The deal with Drow is that they live in the underdark. The deal with Sea Elves is that they live in or around the Sea.

And this is ok. I think if you the subgroups you create live in different environments and have ways of life that are distinct from one another, you've mostly justified their existence as a subgroup.

I disagree. Humans live in different environments but do not have subspecies.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Yeah, but humans who live by the sea generally don't have gills and webbed fingers.

I dunno, I like subspecies for elves, although they could use some tightening up. If Eladrin/High Elf were consolidated together, I think that would be good. Also, I wouldn't be sad if Shadar-Kai just replaced Drow.

 

[Yaarel]

The only species that I feel merits subspecies is the Dragonborn. Whether its "ancestry" comes from a transmogrified egg of a Gold Dragon or a White Dragon, makes sense.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Thank you for adding the word "euhemeristic" to my vocabulary but I am afraid that I don't think that really supports your claim. Elves are popular because they're skinny, hot, and better than other people - that's why they have enduring cross-cultural popularity, not for folkloric or Tolkein-related reasons.

they are just vampire without the death by sunlight or need for blood but lack the conversion aspect.

Mountain Dwarves go all in on crafting items and self defense. Hill Dwarves go all in on agriculture and trade.

Lightfoots are all about the new..new places..new experiences, new friends..new treasure.. whole troupes of bards and rogues traveling together, maybe crews of missionaries, seeking to convert folks to their way of life.

Stouts are all about strengthening bonds and the value of home.. they're constantly looking to preserve and improve the their communities.. could be druids, could be clerics, maybe an order of paladins focused on hospitality.

Edit: note..this is all off the top of my head. Like, this isn't high effort design work.. and it gets us to divisions that are about equally distinct as "magicky" vs. "woodsy"

so hill dwaves are halflings?

how would you make those halflings iconic what matters to them?

4E made a real effort to integrate both into not only the default setting, but also other settings, and whilst we'll never know how much was players looking for an excuse to be mad because they'd already decided they disliked 4E, people got REAL BIG MAD about it, hoooo boyyyyy.

It's a pity. I always integrate both into settings I run because I like both quite a lot. Though I will never run a setting where most dragonborns don't have tails nor most tieflings do. Dragonboobs can piss off too - Larian got that right.

why can't we have a new setting that just takes the 4e dragonborn lore and makes it easy to find?

Yeah, but humans who live by the sea generally don't have gills and webbed fingers.

I dunno, I like subspecies for elves, although they could use some tightening up. If Eladrin/High Elf were consolidated together, I think that would be good. Also, I wouldn't be sad if Shadar-Kai just replaced Drow.

so past being elf Aquaman what makes sea elves cool. hint nothing.