D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Remathilis]

Non-adventurers generally learn more slowly, but they potentially have access to all the same stuff. I still prefer that adventurers learn more slowly than the modern D&D assumption though. Really breaks my sense of realism.

In theory, I agree. NPCs can have class levels and high ability scores like PCs, regardless of edition. The vast majority of them won't though.

In AD&D, the number of paladins is vanishingly small. Being born with a 17 Charisma is freakishly rare. Any PC paladin, even a level 1 squire, is already a superhero just by existing. The same is true of rangers, druids and bards. The law of averages says a druid's 15 charisma requirement should make druids so rare that there shouldn't be enough of them to form an enclave, let alone fight for rank.

Almost every classed character in D&D should be on par with a Marvel Superhero in terms of notoriety. The Core Four, with their 9 Prime requisite, might be common enough to slip by with little notice, but all those other classes that require 15 or higher ability scores should be at the very least locally known. A village should know a ranger exists in the woods or have heard tales of a local bard. And that is doubly true of PCs who get into all sorts of shenanigans.

 

[Minigiant]

You're still saying the lowest an NPC can roll on a skill check is 10 plus prof mod x2 + ability mod, so at the weakest an NPC blacksmith can't roll less than a 15 (RT 10 + PB 2 x2 expert + 1 str). Maybe that's why adventurers become adventurers; they suck at skills compared to commoners!

PC adventurers are wasting time fighting orcs.
NPCs are home practing their craft.

It's like a level 3 wizard and a level 11 EK. Both have the same spell slots.
The EK takes 4 times as long because they are more focused on weapons and armor combat.

This is what I keep saying. Fans are using 1994 logic on 2024 game design.

There is more to an dwarf than +2 Con and Darkvision
There is more to a wizard than spell slots.

Once you expand the concepts of species and class, you can expand subspecies and subclass.

 

[Hussar]

I have no problem with you representing the common NPCs of your created world as, well, we'll call them 10'ers. Straight 10's on all ability scores. But, that cannot, and should not be the popular view. Let's look at 5 common professions:

1. The dwarven blacksmith. You mean to tell me that dwarven blacksmith in each and every town has a 10 strength. They swing a heavy hammer all day and bend iron, yet don't have at least a 14 strength?
2. The goblin street urchin. You know the one, the one that has spent three years running, hiding, sneaking, and pilfering. You mean to tell me they don't have at least a 14 dex?
3. The elven sailor who navigates the ship. You mean after to tell me they can't have a 14 intelligence since, you know, their job is fairly commonplace. We'll throw the human hunter in their too. They don't have a 14 wisdom?
4. The old gnome librarian. Sure, this person has spent a lifetime around knowledge many people might not have access to, but hey, they still only have a 10 intelligence?
5. The human salesman. You know, the merchant who peddles and hawks the latest fashions and flavors of the kingdom. They can't have a 14 or 16 charisma?

I think if you are running an adventure, and 90% of the people your PCs meet are 10'ers, then players will become disinterested very quickly.

And yet that’s exactly what the town of Phandalin is.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And yet that’s exactly what the town of Phandalin is.

They statted every resident?

 

[Mecheon]

That alone is a terrible way to define an elf. Which doesn't mean that elves shouldn't have +2 dex and darkvision.

Its moreso in respect of the fact the stats aren't the be all and end all, its the other stuff on top that makes it interesting.

I come from my Warcraft background and, while technically each race has different stats, no one cares about those stats because they're irrelevant once you get good gear. What actually matters are your racials
Humans can break through stuns with their will. You also get more reputation from quests which make them really, really good
Dwarves can turn to stone for a few moments, removing a whole host of negative debuffs from them (seriously stoneform is such a good racial?). You also take less frost damage
Gnomes can slip out of traps and other effects that immobilize you. They also have 1% haste, regardless of stats
Night Elves can turn invisible if they stand still. They also have a passive speed and dodge boost
Orcs can enter a blood fury for a temporary damage increase. They're also tough enough they spend 20% less time being stunned
Trolls can go berserk for a haste increase. They also have increased regeneration because, y'know. Trolls
Tauren, being minotaurs, can stomp so hard you stun everyone around you. You're also quicker at gathering plants which makes tauren herbalists absolute machines
Undead also have that breaking through stuns thing humans do, but due to being, y'know, dead, they don't need to breathe and you can rarely lifesteal from your oppponent

Those are interesting things that speak more to their respective fantasy of playing those races, over a few stat boosts that are ignored once the good gear starts rolling in

 

[Hussar]

They statted every resident?

The named ones anyway.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The named ones anyway.

And they all have just ten in every stat?

 

[Hussar]

And they all have just ten in every stat?

Well, I have it open right now... Other than Sister Grael (sp) the priestess of Tymora who has a 14 wis, yup. They all have straight tens.

 

[MrGrenadine]

This is why I love this game. It's so interesting and fun to see how other folks play.

I prefer species that have specific +'s and even -'s to Ability scores -- which along with their soft skills and other features makes them feel distinctive to me -- as long as I can choose whatever class I want.

I love non-optimal species/class combos (I played a tremendously fun tiny angry halfling barbarian in 3.5, for years) but maybe I don't mind limits and debuffs on Ability scores because we always roll our scores. If I want to play a CHR based class with a -CHR species, I just slot my highest roll to CHR and Bob's yer uncle.

The other reason I like species (on average) to be better or worse in certain stats is I think it promotes teamwork and diverse groups of characters. Its ok that my character has a low WIS or DEX because one of my teammates will have higher scores, and although my low WIS doesn't help me when I roll my Perception checks as a straight up d20, the group benefits from the Cleric's high WIS when interacting with NPCs, etc.

Also, I love the flavor or different kinds of Dwarves and Halflings, and wouldn't mind more sub-species with different features. Thinking about the differences between Hill and Mountain dwarves, whether they're mechincal or just fluff, helps me when I'm conceptualizing a character.

Also, I now want to run a simulation -- what would happen if I ran four 15th level characters with all 10's, and the same exact characters with all 20's, against the same foes?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In theory, I agree. NPCs can have class levels and high ability scores like PCs, regardless of edition. The vast majority of them won't though.

In AD&D, the number of paladins is vanishingly small. Being born with a 17 Charisma is freakishly rare. Any PC paladin, even a level 1 squire, is already a superhero just by existing. The same is true of rangers, druids and bards. The law of averages says a druid's 15 charisma requirement should make druids so rare that there shouldn't be enough of them to form an enclave, let alone fight for rank.

Almost every classed character in D&D should be on par with a Marvel Superhero in terms of notoriety. The Core Four, with their 9 Prime requisite, might be common enough to slip by with little notice, but all those other classes that require 15 or higher ability scores should be at the very least locally known. A village should know a ranger exists in the woods or have heard tales of a local bard. And that is doubly true of PCs who get into all sorts of shenanigans.

You are a bit overexaggerating. A 15+ in charisma is not that uncommon. When rolling 3d6 to to bottom, it is a chance of 20/216 =9.25% (https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.php)

Since you need another 12 for a druid, it is about a 3.5 % chance to qualify. And for a bard with another 13 it is slightly under 1%.

So looking at a village with slightly above 200 people we look at 7 possible druids and about 2 possible bards.

There is an intersection but since the 12s and 13s are on different stats, the intersecion is very small. Half of those characters have below average constitution, but in AD&D 2e you could live well with being slightly below average and you have an 90% chance to not have a negative hitpoint moddifier.

So lets say, we are looking at 1 bard in a 200 people village and 4 druids.

This seems like enough to encounter them frequently enough but nit oversaturatw a village with musicians. And it is certainly enough to form a small druid enclave that welcomes druids from a region with 10 such villages. Especially if you consider that druids have access to food, healing and later even agelessness, so that this enclave will grow over time while the villages might stagnate.

A paladin however is very rare, because they start with 1.75 chance of having charisma 17+ instead of 15+ and need another 9+, which results in a 0.13% chance to qualify at all and then the stats still suck for someone trying to be in the frontlines. No dex or con or str bonus. But at least no penalties for str and con. Chances are good that they are dumb and clumsy. And everyone that qualifies for a paladin also does for a druid. So I guess we need to look at a population of 2000+ to actually have a single paladin that can represent their class well.

On a side note, the bard is in competition with a few wizard subclasses (enchanter and illusionist I guess), so maybe we have to go to 300 to 400 people in the village if they have a wizard that trains apprentices.