No experience for summoned creatures?

[Umbran]

Considering the ultra-weak duration of all Summon spells (1 round/level), I'd probably count it as an encounter with the Summoner (even though the party might not know that). Taking duration into considering this, it's unlikely that the summoned creatures will be located very far from the summoner...

Oh? Say we've a 10th level spellcaster doling the summoning. Let's say the summoned critter has a normal movement rate of 30. If the creature spends half the duration moving, the summoner can be a hundred yards away (as far as 200 yds if the creatures run), and still have 5 rounds to do damage to the characters. While out on grassy plains this means he's in sight, in towns, heavy forest, or indoors the characters probably won't get to touch him.

 

[Ristamar]

Oh? Say we've a 10th level spellcaster doling the summoning. Let's say the summoned critter has a normal movement rate of 30. If the creature spends half the duration moving, the summoner can be a hundred yards away (as far as 200 yds if the creatures run), and still have 5 rounds to do damage to the characters. While out on grassy plains this means he's in sight, in towns, heavy forest, or indoors the characters probably won't get to touch him.

That's still a reasonable encounter distance, as far as I'm concerned. Just because they might not see the caster, doesn't mean it's not an encounter with the caster.

Regardless, I don't see how that particular example is any worse than the cliched hasted/(improved) invisible/non-detection/flying 10th level wizard or sorceror throwing fiery death down upon the PC's from great distances or summoning critters all around them.

 

[Sagiro]

No. Blindness has a Target...not an Effect. Similar spells would be Bull's Strength or Blur. Obviously these are not dispelled when the target goes out of range. Effects are things produced by the spell and those things cannot go beyond the spells range(in general). Some spells may have specific exceptions to this general rule, but Summon Monster is not one.

Hm. Interesting take. Though it still leads to the conclusion that a wall of force will disappear if the caster gets too far away from it, and that seems counter-intuitive.

Wait a minute... ahh! Here's a quote straight from the SRD:

"Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. The character must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell's range."

(emphasis mine)

That seems to settle it, then.

-Sagiro

 

[Petrosian]

Given that we are talking about a great many things here, from summoning spells to calling spells to glyphs and traps... here is how i do it based on my understanding of the rules...

I have an enemy spellcaster and some PCs and some minions and glyphs/firetraps for the spellcaster etc...

If the minion was created, or the glyph created, or the firetrap cast from thw wizards spells prepared TODAY, so that when/while he encounters the party he is slots down from normal, then i do not credit them for experience. In this case they are nothing more than different versions of spells.

If the minion or glyph or firetrap is just part of the force mix/design and the fact that the enemy can cast them serves merely as the justification for them being in the scenario, and thus the caster will be at "normal strength", then i DO count them as XP. In this case they are "part of the forces."

The "free" nature of on the fly beasties is there to reflect he gives up other tactical options, which disappears once the next day comes around.

 

[Umbran]

That's still a reasonable encounter distance, as far as I'm concerned. Just because they might not see the caster, doesn't mean it's not an encounter with the caster.

Regardless, I don't see how that particular example is any worse than the cliched hasted/(improved) invisible/non-detection/flying 10th level wizard or sorceror throwing fiery death down upon the PC's from great distances or summoning critters all around them.

First off, the DMG generally limits encounter distance to line of sight. Indoors/underground, or in urban or in other places or restricted visibility, 100 yards or more is not a suitable encounter distance.

Next - there's two very large difference between my example and yours. Your wizard must expend spells or magic (potions, scrolls, etc) equivalent to three 3rd level or higher spells before he can begin to attack. That's a significant chunk of gold, or of his day's spells. Your wizard must also be in line of sight to unleash his firey death (there are some limits to the area the party needs to search - while he is well hidden, he is vulnerable), where mine can be some city blocks away sipping sherry, completely invulnerable. Seems to me to be different beasts altogether.

 

[Sigma]

Hypothetically speaking...

If a party gets xp for killing summoned monsters provided that they can't get at the caster, does that mean you can have the party wizard cast summon monster and teleport away? The rest of the party kills the monster, and since they can't touch the caster, they get xp. Turbo-leveling, here I come!

 

[Sagiro]

Hypothetical situation: A party of high level adventurers has camped outside at night, and for whatever reason no one is on watch. An enemy wizard comes across the campsite, catching them napping.

He casts a delayed blast fireball, then teleports away, and then the fireball goes off. Kaboom! The party is badly damaged in the conflagration, but not killed. Should the PC's get any experience for the encounter?

or..

He casts summon monster VII, then teleports away, and then the summoned Huge Earth Elemental attacks the camp. Roar! The party is badly damaged in the battle, but not killed. Should the PC's get any experience for the encounter?

The question, of course, is whether the PC's should get XP for one of these scenarios and not the other.

-Sagiro

 

[Sigma]

First off, the DMG generally limits encounter distance to line of sight. Indoors/underground, or in urban or in other places or restricted visibility, 100 yards or more is not a suitable encounter distance.

Next - there's two very large difference between my example and yours. Your wizard must expend spells or magic (potions, scrolls, etc) equivalent to three 3rd level or higher spells before he can begin to attack. That's a significant chunk of gold, or of his day's spells. Your wizard must also be in line of sight to unleash his firey death (there are some limits to the area the party needs to search - while he is well hidden, he is vulnerable), where mine can be some city blocks away sipping sherry, completely invulnerable. Seems to me to be different beasts altogether.

The range of fireball is long. A 13th level caster could be 900 feet away (aka, 300 yards) in an empty field throwing fireballs.

The summoner on the other hand decides that he's thirteenth level, and figures that an air elemental flys at a speed of 100, so he should just cast it at the edge of his range (55 feet) and send it to pummel his enemies. Off goes the elemental, traveling for 6 rounds (half the duration) and making it 600 feet towards the party. In the meantime, the wizard has decided he's too close, and has spent the 6 rounds moving away from it and the party. He's now 360 feet away himself (60*6). Total distance between the two: 1045 feet. About 145 feet further away than the fireballing wizard.

That's one of the more extreme examples I can find, and I can't say that I find it all that compelling. Sure, you can make the situation optimal for the summoner (he's in town/behind barriers/difficult to find), but you could just as easily make it optimal for the fireballer (he's behind a thick iron wall with an arrow slit and the party is trapped in a 20' wide corridor, sipping sherry from the safety of the wall if he wants). The planar ally spells I could see awarding xp, but not the summon monster ones.

As one final note, ECL's are different from CR's because the creature's abilities come up every game session, and not just in the few rounds the players encounter a creature before offing it. Similarly, there is a big difference between having to fight a bebelith until its hit points are 0, and having to endure a bebilith's attacks until 4 rounds have passed.

 

[Ristamar]

First off, the DMG generally limits encounter distance to line of sight. Indoors/underground, or in urban or in other places or restricted visibility, 100 yards or more is not a suitable encounter distance.

Next - there's two very large difference between my example and yours. Your wizard must expend spells or magic (potions, scrolls, etc) equivalent to three 3rd level or higher spells before he can begin to attack. That's a significant chunk of gold, or of his day's spells. Your wizard must also be in line of sight to unleash his firey death (there are some limits to the area the party needs to search - while he is well hidden, he is vulnerable)...

You missed the point. The spells in the example are just a means to an end. If you prefer, we can say the wizard left a delayed blast fireball (yes, I know a 10th level mage can't cast DBF, it's just the first example that came to mind) sitting in a room and then teleported (or dimensional doored, or turned ethereal and walked through a wall, etc.) away when he heard adventures clanking down the hall. Whether the PC's realize they just had an encounter with said wizard when the huge ball of flame engulfs the party is irrelevant. There was an encounter of sorts, even if the PC's don't recognize or understand the source of the encounter....

...where mine can be some city blocks away sipping sherry, completely invulnerable. Seems to me to be different beasts altogether.

You do realize that the duration is 2 minutes, right? And that's for a 20th level caster. Only 1 minute for a 10th level caster. Unless you're using some form of magical transportation, you're not going to put a vast amount of distance between yourself and the beast, even in the most optimal of scenarios.

High level casters using hit and run tactics isn't anything new. Summon Monster spells, having both a very short range and duration, aren't considered exceptionally frightening just because the caster can flee the seen of the crime after casting the spell and possibly remain unidentified. There are plently of other tactics that are just as sneaky and deadly and don't involve summoning spells. I honestly see no reason why defeating summoned creatures should be worth additional experience.

 

[Uller]

Bull's Strength and Blur...

No..no...you misread(or I mistyped!). I was saying Bull's Strenght and Blur have targets and are more like Blindness/Deafness...so you power up your buddy and he remains strong without you having to remain in constant contact with him(which would be very odd indeed).