D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

[prabe]

That's just not feasible or desirable for some groups, particularly if they are trying to experience the storyline of a published module or a plot written by the DM who doesn't want to throw his or her prep out the window.

Fortunately, the players have more or less chosen which path to follow, of several I have presented, and all I'm doing is building the road in front of them. On the occasions when they've been between paths, or in a position to choose a new path, I've had to do more ad libbing, and on more than one occasion I've told them straight out they'd outstripped my prep.

 

[iserith]

Well, I do hate to throw out prep, and while I've been talking a lot about DM agency in this thread, the most important thing to me is the desire of the players to succeed in following that storyline. If they want to be on track it's not hard to make that happen without undue deus ex machina, but trying to do when the players don't care or don't want to would be a different story, and closer to what a lot of people in this thread have a problem with.

That's just the difference between having player buy-in on following a set storyline and railroading. If they agree ahead of time to follow, say, the storyline of HotDQ and RoT because that's the campaign everyone wants to do, then it's on them to stick to their agreement. It is not railroading in this instance because they are not being pressed into a particular direction without their consent. If they did not agree to follow a set storyline and the DM keeps doing things to keep them on said storyline, then we have a case of railroading. Which argues for the DM to be transparent about the kind of game he or she wants to run up front and the players to be clear with their buy-in (or not).

 

[Fenris-77]

The transparency of the initial pitch is indeed key, everyone needs to go into a game with an understanding of what the plan is. That initial buy in removes most of the issues people have brought up in this thread.

 

[iserith]

Fortunately, the players have more or less chosen which path to follow, of several I have presented, and all I'm doing is building the road in front of them. On the occasions when they've been between paths, or in a position to choose a new path, I've had to do more ad libbing, and on more than one occasion I've told them straight out they'd outstripped my prep.

Sure, and in a game like Monayuris prefers, you can't really stray outside the prep so what you say above is unnecessary. The sandbox's size is communicated to the players (e.g. adventure location, region, country, world, multiverse, etc.) and they stay within it. But within that boundary, they can do as they like and there is no storyline to follow. Woe to the DM though, who has a lot of prep to do, some of which may never see the light of day!

 

[Arilyn]

Yes, when I'm talking about moving clues, etc., I'm assuming player frustration, because they want to pursue the plot. If they couldn't care less about finding the Grey Keep or solving the innkeeper's murder, I'm not going to force the issue.

I don't want the player characters to be determined to bring justice to the innkeeper and then give up because they get thoroughly stuck. Note, thoroughly stuck. Some frustration is normal.

If it's an AP, the players have buy in. If they find part way through that it is not of interest, we'll move on to something else. This doesn't usually happen though, because our table's APs stray pretty far from the published parts anyway.

 

[Prakriti]

That's just not feasible or desirable for some groups, particularly if they are trying to experience the storyline of a published module

This is one thing that has confused me during this discussion: The number of people apparently getting the vapors over the idea of plot-based adventures and treating them as strange and aberrant things. Surely they're aware that nearly every AP published by WotC and Paizo over the past 10 years has been plot-based, and one of the challenges of running such an adventure is keeping the players "on plot?" To a large number of players, especially those who only run published adventures, there's only one sort of campaign, and it's the one that has a predetermined story. WotC has taught them as much.

 

[iserith]

Yes, when I'm talking about moving clues, etc., I'm assuming player frustration, because they want to pursue the plot. If they couldn't care less about finding the Grey Keep or solving the innkeeper's murder, I'm not going to force the issue.

I don't want the player characters to be determined to bring justice to the innkeeper and then give up because they get thoroughly stuck. Note, thoroughly stuck. Some frustration is normal.

If it's an AP, the players have buy in. If they find part way through that it is not of interest, we'll move on to something else. This doesn't usually happen though, because our table's APs stray pretty far from the published parts anyway.

Now let's imagine you're a person who does not run or play in APs or any game that has a plot. There's really no good reason to move clues around so the PCs can stay on the plot because there isn't a plot to begin with. Then we can see where some of these posters are coming from.

 

[iserith]

This is one thing that has confused me during this discussion: The number of people apparently getting the vapors over the idea of plot-based adventures and treating them as strange and aberrant things. Surely they're aware that nearly every AP published by WotC and Paizo over the past 10 years has been plot-based, and one of the challenges of running such an adventure is keeping the players "on plot?" To a large number of players, especially those who only run published adventures, there's only one sort of campaign, and it's the one that has a predetermined story. WotC has taught them as much.

I agree. I will add that, anecdotally, I've been running small sandboxes as one-shots for pickup groups on a D&D Discord server as have some of the DMs in our secret cabal. We're experimenting with hexcrawls and the like. What we've seen is that players are highly engaged by these scenarios, often opting to play the same scenarios over and over. There is hunger out there for these types of games that is not being met by Wizards and their APs. Some of these players, as you note, have only ever had plot-based games presented to them and the freedom offered by even a small sandbox in a 4-hour session is highly desirable.

 

[Fenris-77]

Now let's imagine you're a person who does not run or play in APs or any game that has a plot. There's really no good reason to move clues around so the PCs can stay on the plot because there isn't a plot to begin with. Then we can see where some of these posters are coming from.

No one ever criticized their gaming style. Sandbox is fine and cool. The issue was mostly with people on that side of the fence really not getting that their way isn't the only way to play, and that other types of games might require a different approach. Not everyone on that side, obviously, but a handful.

Also, sandbox games don't really exist without plot either. It just happens in smaller chunks and gets handled differently.

 

[iserith]

No one ever criticized their gaming style. Sandbox is fine and cool. The issue was mostly with people on that side of the fence really not getting that their way isn't the only way to play, and that other types of games might require a different approach. Not everyone on that side, obviously, but a handful.

Yeah, well, obviously those assertions are wrong. But maybe they'll come around if we can show that we understand how they play even if some of us don't play that way.

Also, sandbox games don't really exist without plot either. It just happens in smaller chunks and gets handled differently.

I think it's important not to muddle terms here for the sake of communication. Those are better called "situations" or the like in my view rather than "plots" which have a predetermined direction as in a published storyline. There are location-based games (sandbox) and there are event-based games (plots).